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London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:34:40 +0100
"Tim Fenton" wrote: Dave Hill's London Blog concludes so, from recent comments and articles: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehil...on-london-publ c-transport-fares Boris potentially proving yet again that it is actually possibly to make Ken Livingstone seem like a forward thinking intellectual in retrospect. How many more years until we can vote this buffoon out? B2003 |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On Sep 10, 10:51*am, wrote: On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:34:40 +0100 "Tim Fenton" wrote: Dave Hill's London Blog concludes so, from recent comments and articles: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehil...oris-johnson-l... c-transport-fares Or via http://tinyurl.com/m53plb Boris potentially proving yet again that it is actually possibly to make Ken Livingstone seem like a forward thinking intellectual in retrospect. How many more years until we can vote this buffoon out? Afraid a forthcoming fare rise is no surprise. There is also the electoral timetable to consider, as Paul C has pointed out in the past - significant fare rises in January 2011 or 2012 will be too close to the May 2012 Mayoral election. Dave Hill refers to Boris saying "Why shouldn't I save up the good news?" when pressed on the issue during yesterday's Mayor's Question Time. I dare say the "good news" that Boris is keen to announce is that agreement has finally been reached with the mainline TOCs that Oyster Pay-as-you-go will be accepted across all National Rail routes in London (though it's far from clear that the final deal has yet been signed - last minute wrangling is quite possible) - the Mayor will make a massive fanfare of this, and the hope will presumably be that it takes the limelight whilst the fare rises are shoved backstage. P.S. Here's the link to Walmar's Evening Standard article on the topic (referred to by Dave Hill): http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ils/article.do |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 10, 10:51 am, wrote: On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:34:40 +0100 "Tim Fenton" wrote: Dave Hill's London Blog concludes so, from recent comments and articles: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehil...oris-johnson-l... c-transport-fares Or via http://tinyurl.com/m53plb Boris potentially proving yet again that it is actually possibly to make Ken Livingstone seem like a forward thinking intellectual in retrospect. How many more years until we can vote this buffoon out? Afraid a forthcoming fare rise is no surprise. There is also the electoral timetable to consider, as Paul C has pointed out in the past - significant fare rises in January 2011 or 2012 will be too close to the May 2012 Mayoral election. Dave Hill refers to Boris saying "Why shouldn't I save up the good news?" when pressed on the issue during yesterday's Mayor's Question Time. I dare say the "good news" that Boris is keen to announce is that agreement has finally been reached with the mainline TOCs that Oyster Pay-as-you-go will be accepted across all National Rail routes in London (though it's far from clear that the final deal has yet been signed - last minute wrangling is quite possible) - the Mayor will make a massive fanfare of this, and the hope will presumably be that it takes the limelight whilst the fare rises are shoved backstage. The 'inflation + 1%', expected to be -0.4%, cannot cause a reduction in individual PAYG fares anyway for the reasons discussed before, that single fares aren't high enough and they only use whole 10p steps. So the best that can be expected is a freeze. In fact I expect most of the daily caps aren't high enough to go down either, except perhaps the furthest extremities outside the basic 6 zones... Paul S |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
Paul Scott wrote:
The 'inflation + 1%', expected to be -0.4%, cannot cause a reduction in individual PAYG fares anyway for the reasons discussed before, that single fares aren't high enough and they only use whole 10p steps. So the best that can be expected is a freeze. In fact I expect most of the daily caps aren't high enough to go down either, except perhaps the furthest extremities outside the basic 6 zones... Paul S Agreed, but it would be nice if someone looked at, say, last year's increase and this years and made the resulting cumulative increase approximate to (RPIlastyear+1)*(RPIthisyear+1). However, I suspect what will happen is that the lot will go up 10p or more. I've long speculated that we'll have at least a £1.40 single Oyster PAYG bus fare by the time Boris has finished with us. Still, it's one way of reducing the price differential with National Rail PAYG, raise Tube prices to NR levels! Tom |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On Sep 10, 12:38*pm, "Paul Scott" wrote: [snip] The 'inflation + 1%', expected to be -0.4%, cannot cause a reduction in individual PAYG fares anyway for the reasons discussed before, that single fares aren't high enough and they only use whole 10p steps. So the best that can be expected is a freeze. In fact I expect most of the daily caps aren't high enough to go down either, except perhaps the furthest extremities outside the basic 6 zones.... All good and well, but my understanding is that TfL fares are not subject to any regulatory regime as such - i.e. unlike National Rail fares - so the whole forthcoming issue of enforced 'inflation-linked decreases' (YKWIM!) doesn't apply, at least not to wholly TfL fares. (The current Oyster price caps are of course set 50p below the quasi- equivalent Day Travelcard price, though I wouldn't be entirely surprised if post-January there are two caps - the present one at 50p less than the Travelcard, plus a cap that includes NR travel and is set at the same price as a Travelcard. We shall see...) |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On Sep 10, 12:07*pm, Mizter T wrote:
Dave Hill refers to Boris saying "Why shouldn't I save up the good news?" when pressed on the issue during yesterday's Mayor's Question Time. I dare say the "good news" that Boris is keen to announce is that agreement has finally been reached with the mainline TOCs that Oyster Pay-as-you-go will be accepted across all National Rail routes in London (though it's far from clear that the final deal has yet been signed - last minute wrangling is quite possible) - the Mayor will make a massive fanfare of this, and the hope will presumably be that it takes the limelight whilst the fare rises are shoved backstage. Yesterday at a technical group in London heard a person from ATOC say that PAYG on rail in London is going ahead. |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On Sep 10, 4:09*pm, ticketyboo wrote: On Sep 10, 12:07*pm, Mizter T wrote: Dave Hill refers to Boris saying "Why shouldn't I save up the good news?" when pressed on the issue during yesterday's Mayor's Question Time. I dare say the "good news" that Boris is keen to announce is that agreement has finally been reached with the mainline TOCs that Oyster Pay-as-you-go will be accepted across all National Rail routes in London (though it's far from clear that the final deal has yet been signed - last minute wrangling is quite possible) - the Mayor will make a massive fanfare of this, and the hope will presumably be that it takes the limelight whilst the fare rises are shoved backstage. Yesterday at a technical group in London heard a person from ATOC say that PAYG on rail in London is going ahead. I'm in no doubt that it is - it's just a question of when. January 2010 is when it should go live (well, it should have happened ages ago but that's another story), and I expect in all likelihood it will do - it's just that there's the occasional hint that the TOCs are still quibbling over some of the details. |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On Sep 10, 7:17*pm, Paul Corfield wrote: On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 04:07:55 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T wrote: On Sep 10, 10:51*am, wrote: [snip] Boris potentially proving yet again that it is actually possibly to make Ken Livingstone seem like a forward thinking intellectual in retrospect. |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
Oh I can see the political risks but I don't think that it is
invincible. There are plenty of people who think kids should pay, that they should walk to school and not use buses, that all kids are.... snip If free travel for teenagers (or other children) were so clearly a "good thing" I would expect it to be common in other large cities, in the UK and elsewhere. Is it? I have made no study of the question but happen to have noticed in recent years that there is not free bus travel for unaccompanied children in New York or Paris. Anyone know the position in other cities for children and teens? Or was it that Ken was the only one marching in step? -- OR |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
"Paul Corfield" wrote: While I understand the desire to make a political point on this issue I really think they are all being disingenuous by hinting that if they were in power that "of course" fares would reduce by dint of the inflation figures earlier this year. I suspect that faced with the reality of the TfL budget and forecasts they might well decide differently. Indeed. As we are about to enter a period of high inflation, the idea of making pricing policy on a 'rear view mirror' basis, against historic inflation rates, is foolish in the extreme, and would be so whoever was running London. Chris |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On Sep 13, 2:42*pm, "Chris Read" wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote: * While I understand the desire to make a political point on this issue I really think they are all being disingenuous by hinting that if they were in power that "of course" fares would reduce by dint of the inflation figures earlier this year. I suspect that faced with the reality of the TfL budget and forecasts they might well decide differently. Indeed. As we are about to enter a period of high inflation, the idea of making ^n't pricing policy on a 'rear view mirror' basis, against historic inflation rates, is foolish in the extreme, and would be so whoever was running London. Corrected for you. -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
John B wrote:
On Sep 13, 2:42 pm, "Chris Read" wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote: While I understand the desire to make a political point on this issue I really think they are all being disingenuous by hinting that if they were in power that "of course" fares would reduce by dint of the inflation figures earlier this year. I suspect that faced with the reality of the TfL budget and forecasts they might well decide differently. Indeed. As we are about to enter a period of high inflation, the idea of making ^n't pricing policy on a 'rear view mirror' basis, against historic inflation rates, is foolish in the extreme, and would be so whoever was running London. Corrected for you. Srsly, have fares ever gone down? |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:36:05 -0400, redcat
wrote: Srsly, have fares ever gone down? London bus fares have, haven't they? Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On Sep 13, 4:18*pm, (Neil Williams) wrote: On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:36:05 -0400, redcat wrote: Srsly, have fares ever gone down? London bus fares have, haven't they? Yes. Oyster PAYG fares were £1 at the beginning of 2007, but then dropped to 90p that September IIRC. To be blunt, this was a fairly transparent electioneering gambit from Ken given the upcoming elections in May 2008. The fare went back up to £1 in January 2009. Looking at a longer term perspective, the introduction of the flat fare for buses had the effect of cutting the price for a load of bus journeys. Ten years ago I used to pay £1.20 to get into central London on a bus - nowadays the same journey would of course cost £1 (though one suspects not for much longer - hence the subject of this thread). |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 15:32:27 +0100, John B wrote:
On Sep 13, 2:42*pm, "Chris Read" wrote: As we are about to enter a period of high inflation, the idea of making ^n't pricing policy on a 'rear view mirror' basis, against historic inflation rates, is foolish in the extreme, and would be so whoever was running London. Corrected for you. Sez you. I'd say Chris is a lot more likely to be right. Can you think of an easier way for the government to reduce all this debt it's taken on? Colin McKenzie -- No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at the population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as walking. Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org. |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 13, 4:18 pm, (Neil Williams) wrote: On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:36:05 -0400, redcat wrote: Srsly, have fares ever gone down? London bus fares have, haven't they? Yes. Oyster PAYG fares were £1 at the beginning of 2007, but then dropped to 90p that September IIRC. To be blunt, this was a fairly transparent electioneering gambit from Ken given the upcoming elections in May 2008. The fare went back up to £1 in January 2009. Given inflation over the intervening period, the fact that they're £1 now and were £1 from early 2000 in central London is a cut, too. External to central London they were 70p in 2000, so that I suspect has gone up even allowing for inflation. What is, unfortunately, true is that anyone comparing London with, say, Birmingham is going to conclude that bus fares in London are too low (mind you, rail fares in Birmingham are lower, the last trip I made across the West Midlands was £1.50 from Moseley to New Street by bus and £1.50 from New Street to Wolverhampton by train). Tom |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On 13 Sep, 21:56, Tom Barry wrote:
Mizter T wrote: On Sep 13, 4:18 pm, (Neil Williams) wrote: On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:36:05 -0400, redcat wrote: Srsly, have fares ever gone down? London bus fares have, haven't they? Yes. Oyster PAYG fares were £1 at the beginning of 2007, but then dropped to 90p that September IIRC. To be blunt, this was a fairly transparent electioneering gambit from Ken given the upcoming elections in May 2008. The fare went back up to £1 in January 2009. Given inflation over the intervening period, the fact that they're £1 now and were £1 from early 2000 in central London is a cut, too. External to central London they were 70p in 2000, so that I suspect has gone up even allowing for inflation. What is, unfortunately, true is that anyone comparing London with, say, Birmingham is going to conclude that bus fares in London are too low (mind you, rail fares in Birmingham are lower, the last trip I made across the West Midlands was £1.50 from Moseley to New Street by bus and £1.50 from New Street to Wolverhampton by train). Tom The train being after 1830? In Manchester and Birmingham (also Newcastle on the Metro), there are special reduced evening fares to encourage travel. Jonathan |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
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London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
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London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On 18 Sep, 14:40, Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message of Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:48:49 in uk.transport.london, writes [snip] You young people won't remember Fares Fair in 1981/2. Fares were cut to I DO remember and look forward to a Freedom Pass next year. 10/20/30/40p for 1 to 4 zones. Even after the court challenge and the subsequent increase to 20/40/60/80p they were cheaper than they had been before for most journeys. I have just failed to find a URL describing Fares Fair in detail. I DO remember even cheaper Sunday fares from Zone 1E to Epping Forest. These days, I think cheaper Sunday fares would be a bad thing as the zone 1 load levels on the restricted network are fairly high. I suppose planned engineering closures won't happen during the Olympics. -- Walter Briscoe What was the name of the later scheme to cut the fares that came a year or two after Fares Fair? I don't know how that was funded. |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
In message , at 14:40:56 on Fri, 18
Sep 2009, Walter Briscoe remarked: I suppose planned engineering closures won't happen during the Olympics. I dunno. Maybe someone will decide it's an ideal time to close the Jubilee for a track upgrade :) -- Roland Perry |
London - Looks Like Fares Going Up
On 18 Sep, 21:00, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:08:38 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote: On 18 Sep, 14:40, Walter Briscoe wrote: In message of Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:48:49 in uk.transport.london, writes [snip] You young people won't remember Fares Fair in 1981/2. Fares were cut to 10/20/30/40p for 1 to 4 zones. Even after the court challenge and the subsequent increase to 20/40/60/80p they were cheaper than they had been before for most journeys. Yes I do remember - I have the leaflet sitting on a shelf beside the PC. I have just failed to find a URL describing Fares Fair in detail. I DO remember even cheaper Sunday fares from Zone 1E to Epping Forest. Sunday fares inside Greater London were 20p flat fare. All fares on sections outside Greater London actually increased when Fares Fair commenced. What was the name of the later scheme to cut the fares that came a year or two after Fares Fair? "Just the ticket" was what it was called and it started on 4 October 1983. It also launched Travelcard and the full zonal system. I have the leaflet for that too! Ah yes of course. I should have remembered that. I don't know how that was funded. Nor do I. My guess is that some subsidy was added but it was the creation of Travelcard that caused a huge boost to sales and usage. The growth was so strong that any reduction in single fares only required a short term fillip from subsidy. Moving towards a much simpler system also reduced costs by shifting transactions towards seasons thus reducing cash transactions on bus and allowing more automation on LUL. The increase in pre-purchased tickets also allowed a further push towards one man operation on the bus network. The introduction of UTS also reduced the need for manual ticket inspection on LUL in the central area and allowed more machine based transactions. -- Paul C On the face of it, it looks ironic that the onboard self-service ticket machines disappeared for good around the same time. But of course, it isn't really, because it wasn't equivalent to ticket machines at LU stations. The idea of a queue of people, while the bus waits, feeding exact coins into a machine that took up the space of a few seats never made much sense to me, but the real change was the advance purchase of various passes. The "Red Bus Rover" wasn't available in shops I don't think, but the early 1980s scratch-off bus pass was. |
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