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New tube map out
Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are
also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared and zones are no longer shown. Nicks |
New tube map out
Nicks wrote on 14 September 2009 22:34:32 ...
Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared and zones are no longer shown. Oh dear. The Thames is such a major feature of London, and its omission doesn't help people to relate the Tube map to the actual geography, especially around the Isle of Dogs. As for not showing the zones, that's utterly crazy. It's essential information for vast numbers of passengers. The TfL site is still showing the March 2009 edition. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
New tube map out
On Sep 14, 10:34*pm, "Nicks" wrote: Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared and zones are no longer shown. Nicks WTF? I mean really, WTF? Is this a misprint I wonder? (If it isn't, I can see why some could possibly argue about the presence or otherwise of the rover - though I'd defo keep it - but why make the zones disappear?) |
New tube map out
On Sep 15, 12:32*am, Mizter T wrote: [snip] On reflection a slightly hyperactive post! I'll reserve judgement until I get see it properly, but here''s a preview via Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/blech/3915868255/ Quite radical. Not sure I approve. Maybe I'm a conservative fuddy duddy. I see that the Clapham North/ Clapham High Street interchange, which campaigners fought a long battle to get on the map, is one of the things that's been swept away. And the Brixton LU/NR interchange is presented as seamless, when it ain't! And Edgware Road is also now one big happy station, despite the fact it ain't either. Long way from Pimlico to Victoria too, for no apparent reason. Incidentally the pocket map and poster are possibly a bit different, not sure how though. Here's a fuzzy take on the poster sized version: http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrenl...94475/sizes/o/ |
New tube map out
On 15 Sep, 00:59, Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 15, 12:32*am, Mizter T wrote: [snip] On reflection a slightly hyperactive post! I'll reserve judgement until I get see it properly, but here''s a preview via Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/blech/3915868255/ Quite radical. Not sure I approve. Maybe I'm a conservative fuddy duddy. I see that the Clapham North/ Clapham High Street interchange, which campaigners fought a long battle to get on the map, is one of the things that's been swept away. And the Brixton LU/NR interchange is presented as seamless, when it ain't! And Edgware Road is also now one big happy station, despite the fact it ain't either. Long way from Pimlico to Victoria too, for no apparent reason. Incidentally the pocket map and poster are possibly a bit different, not sure how though. Here's a fuzzy take on the poster sized version:http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrenl...94475/sizes/o/ The bottom line is that simple is good, but not if it's simply wrong. Zones and interchanges are things that people need to know about in order to do a journey. Will there be a corresponding reduction in announcements about keeping your belongings with you? Thought not. Will they stop putting advertising projectors and CCTV cameras directly in front of the platform PIS? Thought not. As well as the Clapham situation you mention, I note that they've gone back to pretending that the sole Jubilee/DLR interchange is Canary Wharf, because it has the same name, when recently they'd acknowledged that Heron Quays is nearer to Jubilee. No doubt there are many similar regressive examples. It does all seem like a terrible mistake. |
New tube map out
Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 14, 10:34 pm, "Nicks" wrote: Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared and zones are no longer shown. Nicks WTF? I mean really, WTF? Is this a misprint I wonder? (If it isn't, I can see why some could possibly argue about the presence or otherwise of the rover... Near Barking presumably? Free in the Metro, an optional self adhesive river overlay, or a blue highlighter... Paul S |
New tube map out
In message
, at 01:15:59 on Tue, 15 Sep 2009, MIG remarked: Zones and interchanges are things that people need to know about in order to do a journey. It's misleading in some places, for example showing a "big gap" between the Victoria and Picc at Kings Cross, but nothing for the longer walk at Green Park. -- Roland Perry |
New tube map out
Nicks wrote:
Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared and zones are no longer shown. I'm rather puzzled because this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ered-maps.html seems to show an 'OLD' map displaying the full extent of the ELLX, but the 'NEW' map shows the old ELL including river crossing (despite the river not being shown). Did the Daily Mail get it wrong? Theo |
New tube map out
On 15 Sep, 12:36, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Mizter T wrote: On Sep 14, 10:34 pm, "Nicks" wrote: Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared and zones are no longer shown. Nicks WTF? I mean really, WTF? Is this a misprint I wonder? (If it isn't, I can see why some could possibly argue about the presence or otherwise of the rover... Near Barking presumably? Free in the Metro, an optional self adhesive river overlay, or a blue highlighter... People are getting all hung up about the river, but the much more serious and sinister issue is that this is paving the way for the abolition of travelcards and the restoration (already under way) of point to point fares calculated by formulas not available to the public. |
New tube map out
Theo Markettos wrote:
Nicks wrote: Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared and zones are no longer shown. I'm rather puzzled because this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ered-maps.html seems to show an 'OLD' map displaying the full extent of the ELLX, but the 'NEW' map shows the old ELL including river crossing (despite the river not being shown). Did the Daily Mail get it wrong? Certainly don't think that OLD map has been out in the wild, the full ELL is a bit of a giveaway in that respect. The new map does match some pictures I've seen on various sites, except I've also seen it without the grid lines. The BBC's version is a bit clearer in fact: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...9_Tube_Map.pdf The ELL is shown in the Overground colour, with dashed lines denoting under construction; but if the point of the map is to show where you can travel as of today, why is it there at all? I think it has been pointed out somewhere that the pocket map and latest wall map are slightly different as well... Paul |
New tube map out
"They" really should do something about those wheelchair symbols.
Which ones are interchanges, and which ones aren't? Perhaps just put a little wheelchair pictogram overlaid on the station symbol, without the dirty great big circles? PhilD -- |
New tube map out
On Sep 16, 9:16*pm, MIG wrote: On 15 Sep, 12:36, "Paul Scott" wrote: Mizter T wrote: On Sep 14, 10:34 pm, "Nicks" wrote: Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared and zones are no longer shown. WTF? I mean really, WTF? Is this a misprint I wonder? (If it isn't, I can see why some could possibly argue about the presence or otherwise of the rover... Near Barking presumably? Free in the Metro, an optional self adhesive river overlay, or a blue highlighter... People are getting all hung up about the river, but the much more serious and sinister issue is that this is paving the way for the abolition of travelcards and the restoration (already under way) of point to point fares calculated by formulas not available to the public. A conspiracy theory too far, me thinks. Nowadays all rail fares (whether Tube or mainline) are calculated on a zonal basis, which is a significant change from yesteryear. The notion that the 'march to zonality' is somehow going to be turned back now is somewhere between East Ham and Upney (sorry!). I do get a bit of why you say that, but I wouldn't go along with the notion that it's a massive sinister plot. |
New tube map out
In message
s.com of Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:16:19 in uk.transport.london, MIG writes [snip] People are getting all hung up about the river, but the much more serious and sinister issue is that this is paving the way for the abolition of travelcards and the restoration (already under way) of point to point fares calculated by formulas not available to the public. I wonder what you mean. I can think of Watford Junction peculiarities and the difference between the printed and web versions of the two "Your guide to fares and tickets ..." documents. The printed version says: "If the time between touching in and touching out exceeds two and a half hours you will be charged more than the Oyster single fare for your journey." The actual time budget can now be as low as 70 minutes. I have also seen suggestions that there will be no consistency between Underground and National Rail fares when Pay As You Go is rolled out. Do you refer to anything else? Moving back to the map; it shows Marylebone to Bayswater via the TWO Edgware Road stations as a reasonable route - an OSI between them would make it slightly less unreasonable. Currently, that trip is ticketed as TWO journeys. (I DO know a walk between Marylebone and Edgware Road (subsurface) is more reasonable in that trip ;) I assume a continuing contract means IKEA has the right to dominate Tube map posters - I would happily lose IKEA's yellow strip. I find the new maps so much worse than the old that I wonder "conspiracy?". I can't think who wins. The Mayor might think CUI BONO, but is too bright to say so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cui_bono ;) -- Walter Briscoe |
New tube map out
On 17 Sep, 06:03, Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message s.com of Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:16:19 in uk.transport.london, MIG writes [snip] People are getting all hung up about the river, but the much more serious and sinister issue is that this is paving the way for the abolition of travelcards and the restoration (already under way) of point to point fares calculated by formulas not available to the public. I wonder what you mean. I can think of Watford Junction peculiarities and the difference between the printed and web versions of the two "Your guide to fares and tickets ..." documents. The printed version says: "If the time between touching in and touching out exceeds two and a half hours you will be charged more than the Oyster single fare for your journey." The actual time budget can now be as low as 70 minutes. I have also seen suggestions that there will be no consistency between Underground and National Rail fares when Pay As You Go is rolled out. Do you refer to anything else? Moving back to the map; it shows Marylebone to Bayswater via the TWO Edgware Road stations as a reasonable route - an OSI between them would make it slightly less unreasonable. Currently, that trip is ticketed as TWO journeys. (I DO know a walk between Marylebone and Edgware Road (subsurface) is more reasonable in that trip ;) I assume a continuing contract means IKEA has the right to dominate Tube map posters - I would happily lose IKEA's yellow strip. I find the new maps so much worse than the old that I wonder "conspiracy?". I can't think who wins. The Mayor might think CUI BONO, but is too bright to say so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cui_bono ;) -- Walter Briscoe Well, the thing is (in answer to Mizter T as well) that "conspiracy" doesn't really consist of Blofeld and the rest sitting round a table and planning to be evil. It's more about how people will put more effort into things that fit into their preferred vision for the future and less effort into things that don't, and also cooperate with others who turn out to be thinking the same way. More importantly, they will do or approve things which happen to be consistent with their preferred future, even if they have no active plans for getting there. So Boris, ie the Tories, undoubtedly prefers a future where fares can be raised without it being blatantly obvious. Point to point PAYG fares are much easier to raise in subtle ways by recalculations and so on without appearing to be across-the-board increases (and without people even noticing what they are paying with autotopup etc). I'm quite sure that they have no actual plan for how they on Earth they can just abolish zones and travelcards and raise fares, but I also think that they'd love to have that situation. This map is just one little logical building block that's consistent with that vision. |
New tube map out
On 17 Sep, 21:42, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 01:12:10 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote: So Boris, ie the Tories, undoubtedly prefers a future where fares can be raised without it being blatantly obvious. *Point to point PAYG fares are much easier to raise in subtle ways by recalculations and so on without appearing to be across-the-board increases (and without people even noticing what they are paying with autotopup etc). I'm quite sure that they have no actual plan for how they on Earth they can just abolish zones and travelcards and raise fares, but I also think that they'd love to have that situation. *This map is just one little logical building block that's consistent with that vision. They can't abolish Travelcard - it would be political death not only in London but also in the home counties. *I believe Travelcard is also a "protected" product under the Railways Act plus there are other governing agreements that would be hard to unravel. Ye - es, I can see that, although maybe an alternative would be to eventually put up travelcard prices at a time when no one is using them any more. Smartcard outboundary seasons would probably kill them off completely, even if they are technically available. And once everyone is on PAYG ... TfL was trying to claim that PAYG was a replacement for travelcards years ago, and no doubt they will push for that again if ever PAYG is accepted on NR. I mean, the huge change in fares structure that is PAYG and point to point* has already happened; it's just that they've had to keep the old one as well due to the inertia of NR. *even if calculated on a zonal basis for now much useful insight chomped |
New tube map out
On 17 Sep, 22:31, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:13:23 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote: On 17 Sep, 21:42, Paul Corfield wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 01:12:10 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote: So Boris, ie the Tories, undoubtedly prefers a future where fares can be raised without it being blatantly obvious. *Point to point PAYG fares are much easier to raise in subtle ways by recalculations and so on without appearing to be across-the-board increases (and without people even noticing what they are paying with autotopup etc). I'm quite sure that they have no actual plan for how they on Earth they can just abolish zones and travelcards and raise fares, but I also think that they'd love to have that situation. *This map is just one little logical building block that's consistent with that vision. They can't abolish Travelcard - it would be political death not only in London but also in the home counties. *I believe Travelcard is also a "protected" product under the Railways Act plus there are other governing agreements that would be hard to unravel. Ye - es, I can see that, although maybe an alternative would be to eventually put up travelcard prices at a time when no one is using them any more. *Smartcard outboundary seasons would probably kill them off completely, even if they are technically available. *And once everyone is on PAYG ... Sorry but not everyone will go to PAYG. *Travelcard is too well established for it to be withdrawn or to suddenly lose its share of the market. It's too convenient a product. *It also allows things that PAYG doesn't because of its commercial rules. For that reason also there will always be a demand for the more flexible product. TfL was trying to claim that PAYG was a replacement for travelcards years ago, and no doubt they will push for that again if ever PAYG is accepted on NR. I can't recall TfL ever making that statement. Just on that, I was thinking of the "Blue is the new pink" campaign that had to be pulled after an ASA ruling (or whichever relevant authority). |
New tube map out
On Sep 14, 5:34*pm, "Nicks" wrote:
Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared and zones are no longer shown. Nicks Actually NYC eliminated the zone map in the 70's:) |
New tube map out
In message
s.com of Sat, 19 Sep 2009 20:38:34 in uk.transport.london, " writes On Sep 14, 5:34*pm, "Nicks" wrote: Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared and zones are no longer shown. Nicks Actually NYC eliminated the zone map in the 70's:) Irrelevantly interesting ;) I worked in NYC in 1983. All journeys were flat rate and cost a token which AFAIR cost $0.90. London Underground has distance-related charging by zones. The cost of most journeys is a complicated function of class of customer (Adult; child 0-10; child 11-15; etc.), oyster or paper ticket, peak or off peak and zones traversed. Losing zones from the maps seems gross to me. There are 2 fares guides for zones 1-6 and zones 7-9. You can view them via http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx Just to make things interesting, paper guides at stations are slightly obsolete. They say Oyster Pay as You Go Journeys must be completed in 2.5 hours; reality and web documents say 70 minutes to 4 hours. -- Walter Briscoe |
New tube map out
In message , Walter Briscoe
writes There are 2 fares guides for zones 1-6 and zones 7-9. You can view them via http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx Before reading this in full, I had no idea that the system was so ridiculously complicated - it must completely baffle the visitor from overseas. And even such a long document appears to give up at some points - e.g. saying there are special fares on some overground journeys, "ask at your local station for details". It was also out-of-date even when first issued. It claims you can use Oyster on National Rail services between West Hampstead and Moorgate - would be interesting for TfL to suggest what route to take. -- Clive Page |
New tube map out
"Clive Page" wrote in message ... In message , Walter Briscoe writes There are 2 fares guides for zones 1-6 and zones 7-9. You can view them via http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx It was also out-of-date even when first issued. It claims you can use Oyster on National Rail services between West Hampstead and Moorgate - would be interesting for TfL to suggest what route to take. But when issued in Jan 2009 you could still travel West Hampstead to Moorgate on FCC(Thameslink)? Closure didn't happen until 22nd March... Paul S |
New tube map out
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New tube map out
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:48:50 +0100
Clive Page wrote: In message , Walter Briscoe writes There are 2 fares guides for zones 1-6 and zones 7-9. You can view them via http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx Before reading this in full, I had no idea that the system was so ridiculously complicated - it must completely baffle the visitor from If it wasn't so complicated there'd be less scope to fleece people. You can't overcharge if theres a flat fare or simple zoning. Oh , as an aside , if you now enter a station using PAYG, remember you've forgotten something and leave again it'll now cost you 4 quid for the priviledge. It used to be about a quid but obviously that didn't rake in enough cash from people who forgot umbrellas etc. B2003 |
New tube map out
On Sep 21, 9:48*am, Clive Page wrote:
In message , Walter Briscoe writes There are 2 fares guides for zones 1-6 and zones 7-9. You can view them via http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx Before reading this in full, I had no idea that the system was so ridiculously complicated - it must completely baffle the visitor from overseas. *And even such a long document appears to give up at some points - e.g. saying there are special fares on some overground journeys, "ask at your local station for details". It was also out-of-date even when first issued. *It claims you can use Oyster on National Rail services between West Hampstead and Moorgate - would be interesting for TfL to suggest what route to take. West Hampstead -LO- Highbury & Islington -FCC- Moorgate? -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
New tube map out
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:53:20 -0700 (PDT), PhilD wrote:
"They" really should do something about those wheelchair symbols. Which ones are interchanges, and which ones aren't? Perhaps just put a little wheelchair pictogram overlaid on the station symbol, without the dirty great big circles? Or just remove them altogether and leave them to the separate Accessibility Map. IMO they should have been the first thing to go in the simplification, as they're both more visually intrusive and less widely useful than things that did go like the fare zones and grid and index. |
New tube map out
On 16 Sep, 21:22, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Theo Markettos wrote: Nicks wrote: Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared and zones are no longer shown. I'm rather puzzled because this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...p-redrawn-Lond... seems to show an 'OLD' map displaying the full extent of the ELLX, but the 'NEW' map shows the old ELL including river crossing (despite the river not being shown). *Did the Daily Mail get it wrong? Certainly don't think that OLD map has been out in the wild, the full ELL is a bit of a giveaway in that respect. The new map does match some pictures I've seen on various sites, except I've also seen it without the grid lines. The BBC's version is a bit clearer in fact: *http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...9_Tube_Map.pdf The ELL is shown in the Overground colour, with dashed lines denoting under construction; but if the point of the map is to show where you can travel as of today, why is it there at all? I think it has been pointed out somewhere that the pocket map and latest wall map are slightly different as well... Paul Having now seen one of the large wall maps in the wild, I think that they way they've included the ELL is the wrongest thing of all. If they are showing what's currently there, it shouldn't be on the map at all. If they are showing what's under construction, they should show the whole thing. To show a line as it previously was* but never will be again is surely the most useless possible clutter that they could include. Is/was there still some vestige of a requirement for the ELL to exist as part of LU (which also explained the pointless bus services) that is behind this? *Apart from changing the name of Shoreditch. |
New tube map out
MIG wrote:
*Apart from changing the name of Shoreditch. I was going to say Shoreditch must be the only railway station in the world to change name after closing... but then I remembered North End/Bull And Bush. |
New tube map out
Basil Jet wrote:
*Apart from changing the name of Shoreditch. I was going to say Shoreditch must be the only railway station in the world to change name after closing... but then I remembered North End/Bull And Bush. Isn't Shoreditch technically not closed but rather going to be resited as Shoreditch High Street? Or did TfL go through the legal closure procedure? |
New tube map out
"MIG" wrote in message
Having now seen one of the large wall maps in the wild, I think that they way they've included the ELL is the wrongest thing of all. If they are showing what's currently there, it shouldn't be on the map at all. If they are showing what's under construction, they should show the whole thing. To show a line as it previously was* but never will be again is surely the most useless possible clutter that they could include. Is/was there still some vestige of a requirement for the ELL to exist as part of LU (which also explained the pointless bus services) that is behind this? Yes, I was astonished to see the ghost of the old ELL on the new map. As you say, it's probably something to do with some silly legal requirement, but I couldn't understand why they didn't show the new line under construction, just as they've done with other extensions in the year or so before they opened. |
New tube map out
On Sep 20, 9:47*am, Walter Briscoe
wrote: In message s.com of Sat, 19 Sep 2009 20:38:34 in uk.transport.london, " writes On Sep 14, 5:34*pm, "Nicks" wrote: Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared and zones are no longer shown. Nicks Actually NYC eliminated the zone map in the 70's:) Irrelevantly interesting ;) I worked in NYC in 1983. All journeys were flat rate and cost a token which AFAIR cost $0.90. London Underground has distance-related charging by zones. The cost of most journeys is a complicated function of class of customer (Adult; child 0-10; child 11-15; etc.), oyster or paper ticket, peak or off peak and zones traversed. Losing zones from the maps seems gross to me. There are 2 fares guides for zones 1-6 and zones 7-9. You can view them via http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx Just to make things interesting, paper guides at stations are slightly obsolete. They say Oyster Pay as You Go Journeys must be completed in 2.5 hours; reality and web documents say 70 minutes to 4 hours. -- Walter Briscoe Between 1956 and circa 1973 there was an extra fare charged on the A Rockaway line south of howard beach |
New tube map out
In message , Paul Scott
writes But when issued in Jan 2009 you could still travel West Hampstead to Moorgate on FCC(Thameslink)? Closure didn't happen until 22nd March... You are right - it was indeed issued before the closure. It's out-of-date now, of course. -- Clive Page |
New tube map out
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