Sim wrote:
On 17 Sep, 17:48, MIG wrote:
On 17 Sep, 16:22, rail wrote:

Mornington Crescent!

Talking of which, have the rules been changed to take Overground into
account? That should be the true definition of whether or not they
are part of the same system, ie "subject to the rules of Mornington
Crescent".- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

IMHO, you can include Overground only if you admit the offside
diagonal rule between South Acton and Richmond.

Only if the Bellingham redaction is applied simultaneously, IIRC...

Paul S

In message
MIG wrote:

On 17 Sep, 16:22, rail wrote:
In message
* * * * * MIG wrote:





On 17 Sep, 14:28, Andy wrote:
On 17 Sep, 12:53, Jamie Thompson wrote:

On 17 Sep, 12:43, MIG wrote:

On 17 Sep, 12:38, Jamie Thompson wrote:

...though of course, as pointed out elsewhere, the Underground goes
over the Overground at Whitechapel

And at Hampstead, Kilburn and Wembley.

I presume you mean the Met east of South Hampstead (never thought
really about it, but I guess you're right!), the Met at Kilburn yup,
but Wembley? The Met just south of Kenton, yes, but Wembley...where?

I agree that this should be Kenton, not Wembley and it also occurs at
Chiswick (District and Piccadilly over), north of Shepherd's Bush
(Hammersmith & City over), and in the recent past at Stratford
(Central line over until the LO platforms moved to the north of the
station) and West Ham (under the District / H&C until the North
Woolwich section shut).

North west London is all one mush to me ... *Kenton then. *Or
Northwick Park.

Mornington Crescent!


Talking of which, have the rules been changed to take Overground into
account? That should be the true definition of whether or not they
are part of the same system, ie "subject to the rules of Mornington
Crescent".

ROTFL

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

"MIG" wrote

And all electrified parts of the current London Overground were four
rail at some point, weren't they? Ah, maybe not Dalston to Stratford.

nor Kensington Olympia - Clapham Junction (though Willesden Junction HL -
Kensington Olympia was 4-rail from around 1914 to 1940). For completeness,
two other stretches of the LO are electrified at 25 kV OHLE, though used by
LO diesel trains - Barking to Woodgrange Park and through South Tottenham
station.

Peter

Great Eastern wrote:
1506 wrote:
This is something I have wondered for some time. The Overground name
is contrived.

Indeed, its also quite interesting the way the term 'overground' has
become a way of describing National Rail trains within London for some,
even if not run by LOROL.

Its fairly common on LBC 97.3 when callers phone in and talk about rail
services as overground trains.

People have been calling National Rail trains in London "overground" for
a lot longer than LOROL has existed. There was even an Overground
Network branding on a few routes, which lasted about as long as it took
for people to say "WTF are the new signs about?" - but many of the signs
are still there.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

MIG wrote:
On 17 Sep, 10:15, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Sim" wrote



Some differences between Overground and Underground:
1. Third rail electrification rather than fourth, so not compatible
for through running.

The NLL is 25 kV OHLE between Acton and Camden Road, and between Dalston
Kingsland and Stratford, and will be all the way between Acton and Stratford
once the NLL refurbishment is complete. The WLL switches from 25 kV OHLE to
3rd rail between North Pole Junction and Shepherds Bush. Goblin remains
diesel worked (and if it is electrified it will be 25 kV OHLE.

BTW, the Broad Street to Dalston line, most of which is being incorporated
into the ELL, was originally 4th rail, but IIRC was converted to 3rd rail
before closure.

Peter

And all electrified parts of the current London Overground were four
rail at some point, weren't they? Ah, maybe not Dalston to Stratford.

I believe the stretch from Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone is still
four rail, otherwise Bakerloo passengers would have to get out and
push!

Barry Salter wrote:
wrote:
Graham Harrison wrote:

What is now called the "Overground" is actually part of "British
Rail". The government put those lines out to tender and "Overground"
won it. Therefore, it's not part of Tfl as such - for instance it
works under National Rail rules/signalling and passenger
terms/conditions not LU.

But doesn't the Metropolitan line between Uxbridge and Amersham?

The Metropolitan Line doesn't run between Uxbridge and Amersham. ;-)

Whilst the *actual* boundaries are North of Amersham and South of
Harrow-on-the-Hill, the change between Network Rail and London
Underground rules occurs at Harrow-on-the-Hill and Amersham stations.

Cheers,

Barry
My mistake, I indeed meant Harrow-on-the-Hill.

Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 16, 10:10 pm, "
wrote:

Graham Harrison wrote:

"Basil Jet" wrote:
Is there a reason why this is not just billed as part of the
Underground, especially since it will soon have some deep tube bits?
If the Underground can include the Chesham branch, why not the North
London Line? Do staff at Gospel Oak station get paid less than staff
at Chesham, in which case keeping the Overground separate from the
Underground is a divide-and-conquer wheeze against the rail workers?
What is now called the "Overground" is actually part of "British Rail".
The government put those lines out to tender and "Overground" won it.
Therefore, it's not part of Tfl as such - for instance it works under
National Rail rules/signalling and passenger terms/conditions not LU.
But doesn't the Metropolitan line between Uxbridge and Amersham?

No.

The starting signal at Amersham eastbound was definitely set up as a
National Rail signal, and it was not a road signal over a repeater signal.

What about between Putney and Wimbledon and between Gunnersbury and
Richmond?

On 17 Sep, 22:17, "
wrote:
Barry Salter wrote:
wrote:
Graham Harrison wrote:

What is now called the "Overground" is actually part of "British
Rail". The government put those lines out to tender and "Overground"
won it. Therefore, it's not part of Tfl as such - for instance it
works under National Rail rules/signalling and passenger
terms/conditions not LU.

But doesn't the Metropolitan line between Uxbridge and Amersham?

The Metropolitan Line doesn't run between Uxbridge and Amersham. ;-)

Whilst the *actual* boundaries are North of Amersham and South of
Harrow-on-the-Hill, the change between Network Rail and London
Underground rules occurs at Harrow-on-the-Hill and Amersham stations.

Cheers,

Barry

My mistake, I indeed meant Harrow-on-the-Hill.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But it's LU signalling anyway, isn't it?

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:21:29 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:



MIG wrote:
On 17 Sep, 10:15, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Sim" wrote



Some differences between Overground and Underground:
1. Third rail electrification rather than fourth, so not compatible
for through running.

The NLL is 25 kV OHLE between Acton and Camden Road, and between Dalston
Kingsland and Stratford, and will be all the way between Acton and Stratford
once the NLL refurbishment is complete. The WLL switches from 25 kV OHLE to
3rd rail between North Pole Junction and Shepherds Bush. Goblin remains
diesel worked (and if it is electrified it will be 25 kV OHLE.

BTW, the Broad Street to Dalston line, most of which is being incorporated
into the ELL, was originally 4th rail, but IIRC was converted to 3rd rail
before closure.

Peter

And all electrified parts of the current London Overground were four
rail at some point, weren't they? Ah, maybe not Dalston to Stratford.

I believe the stretch from Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone is still
four rail, otherwise Bakerloo passengers would have to get out and
push!

It is 3rd rail with the 4th rail bonded to the running rail which
carries the traction return current. The LU 4-rail system does not
have a deliberate electrical connection between the 3rd/4th rails and
the running rails and is only loosely connected to earth/0v to enable
control equipment to detect earthing of either electric rail. A
further consequence of this arrangement is that trains running over
such sections require higher-rated insulation than is necessarily on
LU (660v to earth rather than 420v to earth) although IMU all current
LU stock

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:34:15 +0100, Charles Ellson
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:21:29 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:



MIG wrote:
On 17 Sep, 10:15, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Sim" wrote



Some differences between Overground and Underground:
1. Third rail electrification rather than fourth, so not compatible
for through running.

The NLL is 25 kV OHLE between Acton and Camden Road, and between Dalston
Kingsland and Stratford, and will be all the way between Acton and Stratford
once the NLL refurbishment is complete. The WLL switches from 25 kV OHLE to
3rd rail between North Pole Junction and Shepherds Bush. Goblin remains
diesel worked (and if it is electrified it will be 25 kV OHLE.

BTW, the Broad Street to Dalston line, most of which is being incorporated
into the ELL, was originally 4th rail, but IIRC was converted to 3rd rail
before closure.

Peter

And all electrified parts of the current London Overground were four
rail at some point, weren't they? Ah, maybe not Dalston to Stratford.

I believe the stretch from Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone is still
four rail, otherwise Bakerloo passengers would have to get out and
push!

It is 3rd rail with the 4th rail bonded to the running rail which
carries the traction return current. The LU 4-rail system does not
have a deliberate electrical connection between the 3rd/4th rails and
the running rails and is only loosely connected to earth/0v to enable
control equipment to detect earthing of either electric rail. A
further consequence of this arrangement is that trains running over
such sections require higher-rated insulation than is necessarily on
LU (660v to earth rather than 420v to earth) although IMU all current
LU stock
.... has been so equipped since the 1960s.