Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8260943.stm

--
Paul Terry

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

Paul Terry wrote:
Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8260943.stm

While they're at it, maybe it's time to put the Lea on too, since it must
have more of an impact on the hinterland of stations than the Thames does...
and maybe the Regents Canal, since it has boat trips from Camden to the Zoo
and Little Venice.

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On 17 Sep, 14:13, Paul Terry wrote:
Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8260943.stm

--
Paul Terry

Hmm. It wouldn't be the first time that a major set of changes
includes one totally ridiculous thing that can be backed down from,
while the rest goes ahead.

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On 17 Sep, 14:13, Paul Terry wrote:

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8260943.stm

Hmm. It wouldn't be the first time that a major set of changes
includes one totally ridiculous thing that can be backed down from,
while the rest goes ahead.

TfL spokesman: "We are also looking again at the provision of zonal
information to ensure that it is widely available to customers and aim to
reach a conclusion on that, also by December, when the new Circle Line
service needs to be reflected."

Perhaps the 'point to point fares' conspiracy has some way to go yet...

Paul S

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On Sep 17, 2:13*pm, Paul Terry wrote:
Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8260943.stm

Mayor 'don't bother me with details' Boris realises that details can
be important.

More specifically, Mayor Boris doesn't really care one way or the
other about such matters and delegates such decision making to the TfL
Board (of which he is at least notionally the Chair of). The Board
meanwhile got a gee-whiz presentation and nodded it through (with or
wothout Bozza there?).

Now the Tube dwelling mouse excrement has started hitting the
ventilation fan and there's a big fuss, the Mayor's Office
(specifically Guto Harri, the Mayor's mouthpiece) decides the easiest
way forward is to tell everyone the Mayor is furious. Perhaps he
actually is, but if so maybe a small degree of that anger should be
directed towards the man in the mirror - or does the buck stop
elsewhere? (i.e. anywhere else!)

Anyway, it all seems a rather inevitable course of events! But
inspired by "Basil Jet's" comments in his reply, what other features
do utl-ers think should be on the map (a crowded, busy, non-clean
version if you will)? Heathrow flightpaths? Thames Water Ring Main?
Air quality? Decent minicab firms? High-frequency night bus routes
that mirror Tube lines? The aural footprint of the Bow Bells?

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

In message
,
Mizter T writes

Anyway, it all seems a rather inevitable course of events! But
inspired by "Basil Jet's" comments in his reply, what other features
do utl-ers think should be on the map (a crowded, busy, non-clean
version if you will)? Heathrow flightpaths? Thames Water Ring Main?
Air quality? Decent minicab firms? High-frequency night bus routes
that mirror Tube lines? The aural footprint of the Bow Bells?

You might think riverbus services, if the Thames is to be reinstated ...
but somehow I think not.
--
Paul Terry

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On 17 Sep, 19:37, Paul Terry wrote:
In message
,
Mizter T writes

Anyway, it all seems a rather inevitable course of events! But
inspired by "Basil Jet's" comments in his reply, what other features
do utl-ers think should be on the map (a crowded, busy, non-clean
version if you will)? Heathrow flightpaths? Thames Water Ring Main?
Air quality? Decent minicab firms? High-frequency night bus routes
that mirror Tube lines? The aural footprint of the Bow Bells?

You might think riverbus services, if the Thames is to be reinstated ...
but somehow I think not.
--
Paul Terry

I think pretty well all people do need all of the following to plan
and pay for their journey on the London Underground.

1) the lines
2) the stations
3) the interchanges
4) the fare zones

Some people also need

5) the accessible stations (and they'll get rid of that clutter if
they ever all are)

Nobody needs

6) Advertising for Ikea
7) Any of the previous suggestions that were nothing to do with
transport (eg Bow Bells, water mains).
8) Transport-related information for systems they aren't using at the
time, which is why bus, taxi and NR information is debatable.
9) The Thames, particularly, although it causes so little bother that
I can't see why they got rid of it.

There's a fuss because information directly necessary for travelling
on LU has been removed, and the objections don't need to be
ridicularised by suggesting that people want all sorts of other
rubbish.

I wonder if there is a single case of a person losing their way on the
system because of the "clutter"? Who are all these people complaining
about it?

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:41:07 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

TfL spokesman: "We are also looking again at the provision of zonal
information to ensure that it is widely available to customers and aim to
reach a conclusion on that, also by December, when the new Circle Line
service needs to be reflected."

Two different maps is the answer to that - there always used to be the
all-lines-including-mainline one with the zones and the Tube-only one
without.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On Sep 17, 11:55*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:41:07 +0100, "Paul Scott"

wrote:
TfL spokesman: *"We are also looking again at the provision of zonal
information to ensure that it is widely available to customers and aim to
reach a conclusion on that, also by December, when the new Circle Line
service needs to be reflected."

Two different maps is the answer to that - there always used to be the
all-lines-including-mainline one with the zones and the Tube-only one
without.


The separate London Connections (the one with rail and Tramlink) and
Underground maps still exist, except I've not seen a London
Connections map to 'take away' at an Underground station (only at
National Rail stations) for a while, probably because they were bigger
than the 'tube' map. Both do appear on LU platforms and are available
on the TfL website (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/1106.aspx);
although the tube map here is still the old version.

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

Mizter T wrote:

Anyway, it all seems a rather inevitable course of events!

Making front page of the Standard was hardly inevitable... must have been a
very slow news day!

But
inspired by "Basil Jet's" comments in his reply, what other features
do utl-ers think should be on the map (a crowded, busy, non-clean
version if you will)? Heathrow flightpaths? Thames Water Ring Main?
Air quality? Decent minicab firms? High-frequency night bus routes
that mirror Tube lines? The aural footprint of the Bow Bells?

You seem to be implying that my suggestions were farcical. Before posting, I
graffitied the Lea and the Regents Canal on a tube map, and it looked
extremely fetching.... the canal frames Central London with irresistable
logic, and the Lea gives a scale to the whole thing and makes you very aware
that it is a map of much of Greater London. Once you've seen it, returning
to the map with just the Thames is very disappointing.

Remember that no Essex station was on Beck's original map (except as a
handnote), partly because the Central hadn't been extended past Liverpool
Street and the Victoria Line hadn't been built, so Beck didn't decide not to
show the Lea on the original map, although he did make that decision for
later maps.

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On Sep 17, 8:00*pm, MIG wrote:
On 17 Sep, 19:37, Paul Terry wrote:

In message
,
Mizter T writes

Anyway, it all seems a rather inevitable course of events! But
inspired by "Basil Jet's" comments in his reply, what other features
do utl-ers think should be on the map (a crowded, busy, non-clean
version if you will)? Heathrow flightpaths? Thames Water Ring Main?
Air quality? Decent minicab firms? High-frequency night bus routes
that mirror Tube lines? The aural footprint of the Bow Bells?

You might think riverbus services, if the Thames is to be reinstated ....
but somehow I think not.
--
Paul Terry

I think pretty well all people do need all of the following to plan
and pay for their journey on the London Underground.

1) the lines
2) the stations
3) the interchanges
4) the fare zones

I don't understand how 4 helps. Most people use Oyster and have some
PAYG balance on their cards, and very few people are going to cancel a
journey because it'll take them out-of-zone and cost an extra 80p.

So, except for holders of paper Travelcards, the information is
irrelevant for both planning and paying.


Nobody needs

6) Advertising for Ikea

....except in the sense that it provides money for TfL, which keeps
down fares and keeps up service quality.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On 18 Sep, 09:49, John B wrote:
On Sep 17, 8:00*pm, MIG wrote:





On 17 Sep, 19:37, Paul Terry wrote:

In message
,
Mizter T writes

Anyway, it all seems a rather inevitable course of events! But
inspired by "Basil Jet's" comments in his reply, what other features
do utl-ers think should be on the map (a crowded, busy, non-clean
version if you will)? Heathrow flightpaths? Thames Water Ring Main?
Air quality? Decent minicab firms? High-frequency night bus routes
that mirror Tube lines? The aural footprint of the Bow Bells?

You might think riverbus services, if the Thames is to be reinstated ....
but somehow I think not.
--
Paul Terry

I think pretty well all people do need all of the following to plan
and pay for their journey on the London Underground.

1) the lines
2) the stations
3) the interchanges
4) the fare zones

I don't understand how 4 helps. Most people use Oyster and have some
PAYG balance on their cards, and very few people are going to cancel a
journey because it'll take them out-of-zone and cost an extra 80p.

So, except for holders of paper Travelcards, the information is
irrelevant for both planning and paying.

For now, an awful lot of people do use travelcards, including paper
ones for one-day and outboundary and bought at NR stations.

A person on a day trip needs to know what one-day travelcard to get
for their day's outings.

And I think I would get off at the stop before a boundary if my
destination was near the boundary, rather than throw away 80p for the
hell of it.





Nobody needs

6) Advertising for Ikea

...except in the sense that it provides money for TfL, which keeps
down fares and keeps up service quality.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot orgwww.johnband.org- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On Sep 18, 11:03*am, MIG wrote:
I don't understand how 4 helps. Most people use Oyster and have some
PAYG balance on their cards, and very few people are going to cancel a
journey because it'll take them out-of-zone and cost an extra 80p.

So, except for holders of paper Travelcards, the information is
irrelevant for both planning and paying.

For now, an awful lot of people do use travelcards, including paper
ones for one-day and outboundary and bought at NR stations.

A person on a day trip needs to know what one-day travelcard to get
for their day's outings.

True, but surely the LC map will be their map-of-choice in any case?

And I think I would get off at the stop before a boundary if my
destination was near the boundary, rather than throw away 80p for the
hell of it.

....which is covered by the zone map in the train, so you can make that
decision in real time...

Anyway. I'm really just devilsadvocating here, I do agree that, unlike
the wheelyblobs, the zones are a useful addition to the map.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

MIG wrote in news:88c6b915-df21-423f-a265-
:

On 17 Sep, 19:37, Paul Terry wrote:
In message
,
Mizter T writes

Anyway, it all seems a rather inevitable course of events! But
inspired by "Basil Jet's" comments in his reply, what other features
do utl-ers think should be on the map (a crowded, busy, non-clean
version if you will)? Heathrow flightpaths? Thames Water Ring Main?
Air quality? Decent minicab firms? High-frequency night bus routes
that mirror Tube lines? The aural footprint of the Bow Bells?

You might think riverbus services, if the Thames is to be reinstated ...
but somehow I think not.
--
Paul Terry

I think pretty well all people do need all of the following to plan
and pay for their journey on the London Underground.

1) the lines
2) the stations
3) the interchanges
4) the fare zones

Could we please also have some indication of stations which are not open
all the time the line is running? Clutter or not, I think putting that
info by the station name is clearer than the dagger symbol.

Peter

--
| Peter Campbell Smith | Epsom | UK |

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

In message
,
John B writes
So, except for holders of paper Travelcards, the information is
irrelevant for both planning and paying.

It's relevant for a lot of people, like me, who live outside London.

For lots of journeys we have a choice of (a) a rail ticket including a
London 1-day travelcard, and (b) a return ticket to London Terminals or
London Thameslink, and then using an Oyster card for the remainder of
the journey. The decision as to which to use depends on the price of
the journey on Oyster - sometimes one is cheaper and sometimes the
other, depending on which zones one crosses. Many of us are not so rich
that even a difference of 50 pence can be ignored.

--
Clive Page

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On Sep 19, 7:28*pm, Clive Page wrote:
So, except for holders of paper Travelcards, the information is
irrelevant for both planning and paying.

It's relevant for a lot of people, like me, who live outside London.

....for whom the Tube map is irrelevant, because there won't be one at
your local station, just a London Connections map. So by the time you
see a Tube map, you'll already have committed to one mode or another.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

John B wrote on 21 September 2009 12:29:07 ...
On Sep 19, 7:28 pm, Clive Page wrote:
So, except for holders of paper Travelcards, the information is
irrelevant for both planning and paying.
It's relevant for a lot of people, like me, who live outside London.

...for whom the Tube map is irrelevant, because there won't be one at
your local station, just a London Connections map. So by the time you
see a Tube map, you'll already have committed to one mode or another.

This is at least the second time that the London Connections map has
been cited in this thread as the alternative source of zonal
information. As far as I know it isn't issued in pocket form, so if
he's planning his journey at home using the pocket Tube map, he's now
lacking vital information.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On 21 Sep, 16:58, "Richard J." wrote:
John B wrote on 21 September 2009 12:29:07 ...

On Sep 19, 7:28 pm, Clive Page wrote:
So, except for holders of paper Travelcards, the information is
irrelevant for both planning and paying.
It's relevant for a lot of people, like me, who live outside London.

...for whom the Tube map is irrelevant, because there won't be one at
your local station, just a London Connections map. So by the time you
see a Tube map, you'll already have committed to one mode or another.

This is at least the second time that the London Connections map has
been cited in this thread as the alternative source of zonal
information. *As far as I know it isn't issued in pocket form, so if
he's planning his journey at home using the pocket Tube map, he's now
lacking vital information.

It is available in pocket form, just not from LU stations (at least
I've not seen one for a while). It does fold out to a much larger size
than the tube map though.

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 03:47:16 -0700 (PDT), John B wrote:

I don't understand how 4 helps. Most people use Oyster and have some
PAYG balance on their cards, and very few people are going to cancel a
journey because it'll take them out-of-zone and cost an extra 80p.

So, except for holders of paper Travelcards, the information is
irrelevant for both planning and paying.

For now, an awful lot of people do use travelcards, including paper
ones for one-day and outboundary and bought at NR stations.

A person on a day trip needs to know what one-day travelcard to get
for their day's outings.

True, but surely the LC map will be their map-of-choice in any case?

And I think I would get off at the stop before a boundary if my
destination was near the boundary, rather than throw away 80p for the
hell of it.

...which is covered by the zone map in the train, so you can make that
decision in real time...

Anyway. I'm really just devilsadvocating here, I do agree that, unlike
the wheelyblobs, the zones are a useful addition to the map.

Bearing in mind that you're playing devil's advocate, I'm still
surprised that no one has pointed out the need for e.g. the
un/under-employed (i.e. cash-poor, time-rich) to plan the cost in
advance (and maybe decide to take a cheaper option, e,g, bus, instead,
or even not make the journey at all).

They may also need to know the exact cost in advance so they know
exactly how much PAYG credit to add at the start of the journey.

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On Sun, 27 Sep 2009, asdf wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 03:47:16 -0700 (PDT), John B wrote:

I don't understand how 4 helps. Most people use Oyster and have some
PAYG balance on their cards, and very few people are going to cancel a
journey because it'll take them out-of-zone and cost an extra 80p.

So, except for holders of paper Travelcards, the information is
irrelevant for both planning and paying.

For now, an awful lot of people do use travelcards, including paper
ones for one-day and outboundary and bought at NR stations.

A person on a day trip needs to know what one-day travelcard to get
for their day's outings.

True, but surely the LC map will be their map-of-choice in any case?

And I think I would get off at the stop before a boundary if my
destination was near the boundary, rather than throw away 80p for the
hell of it.

...which is covered by the zone map in the train, so you can make that
decision in real time...

Anyway. I'm really just devilsadvocating here, I do agree that, unlike
the wheelyblobs, the zones are a useful addition to the map.

Bearing in mind that you're playing devil's advocate, I'm still
surprised that no one has pointed out the need for e.g. the
un/under-employed (i.e. cash-poor, time-rich) to plan the cost in
advance (and maybe decide to take a cheaper option, e,g, bus, instead,
or even not make the journey at all).

They may also need to know the exact cost in advance so they know
exactly how much PAYG credit to add at the start of the journey.

Moreover (or perhaps lessover, YMMV), there is a general principle that
people should be able to tell how much something will cost before they
commit to paying for it. Yes, tube trips are cheap. Tinned tomatoes are
cheap too. How would you feel about Tesco taking the price labels off the
shelf?

tom

--
Know who said that? ****ing Terrorvision, that's who. -- D

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

Tom Anderson wrote

Moreover (or perhaps lessover, YMMV), there is a general principle
that
people should be able to tell how much something will cost before
they
commit to paying for it. Yes, tube trips are cheap. Tinned tomatoes
are
cheap too. How would you feel about Tesco taking the price labels off
the
shelf?

Hee !

Once upon a time people complained when the cans/ packages no longer
had price stickers on them.

You don't commit to paying Tesco until you accept the price they ring
up - you can refuse or indeed say "that's not the price /on the shelf/
/in your advertisement/ whatever"

Some stores (eg ASDA, Argos) have scattered customer terminals at which
you can scan/check the code and be shown the price.

(And canned tomatoes have gone up by 50% - due to the rise in the
Euro).
----

So one answer for TfL is to provide the fare finder on ticket machines
at every station and indeed there have been suggestions that the TfL
journey planner should provide the cost and a "cheapest" option.

I can just see the Amazon style emails - "we have noticed that you
often xxx many customers do yyy and get a faster journey at a lower
price".


--
Mike D

Furious Boris orders TfL to restore the Thames on the new map
 

On Mon, 27 Sep 2009, Michael R N Dolbear wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote

Moreover (or perhaps lessover, YMMV), there is a general principle that
people should be able to tell how much something will cost before they
commit to paying for it. Yes, tube trips are cheap. Tinned tomatoes are
cheap too. How would you feel about Tesco taking the price labels off
the shelf?

Hee !

Once upon a time people complained when the cans/ packages no longer
had price stickers on them.

You don't commit to paying Tesco until you accept the price they ring
up - you can refuse or indeed say "that's not the price /on the shelf/
/in your advertisement/ whatever"

Some stores (eg ASDA, Argos) have scattered customer terminals at which
you can scan/check the code and be shown the price.

(And canned tomatoes have gone up by 50% - due to the rise in the
Euro).
----

So one answer for TfL is to provide the fare finder on ticket machines
at every station and indeed there have been suggestions that the TfL
journey planner should provide the cost and a "cheapest" option.

I can just see the Amazon style emails - "we have noticed that you
often xxx many customers do yyy and get a faster journey at a lower
price".

It's probably too much to hope for TfL to do free delivery (of me),
though.

tom

--
If a scientist were to cut his ear off, no one would take it as evidence
of heightened sensibility -- Peter Medawar