First train tested on East London Line
 

Monday, 5 October saw the first ever London Overground train take to
the £1 billion new track from New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction on
the extended East London Line.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/h...00/8294848.stm

First train tested on East London Line
 

On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 04:24:58 -0700 (PDT)
CJB wrote:
Monday, 5 October saw the first ever London Overground train take to
the =A31 billion new track from New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction on
the extended East London Line.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/h..._8294000/8294=
848.stm


Just out of interest - is this line going to be dedicated to ELL services only
or has the infrastructure been set up so it can be used as a short cut by
freight trains and maybe a diversionary route for other services?

B2003

First train tested on East London Line
 

wrote in message
On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 04:24:58 -0700 (PDT)
CJB wrote:
Monday, 5 October saw the first ever London Overground train take to
the =A31 billion new track from New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction on
the extended East London Line.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/h..._8294000/8294=
848.stm


Just out of interest - is this line going to be dedicated to ELL
services only or has the infrastructure been set up so it can be used
as a short cut by freight trains and maybe a diversionary route for
other services?

Would tight clearance in the Thames Tunnel be a limiting factor? Other
than that, I can't see what would stop other trains using the line.

First train tested on East London Line
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
wrote in message

Just out of interest - is this line going to be dedicated to ELL
services only or has the infrastructure been set up so it can be used
as a short cut by freight trains and maybe a diversionary route for
other services?

Would tight clearance in the Thames Tunnel be a limiting factor? Other
than that, I can't see what would stop other trains using the line.

I don't think there are any significant gauging issues there - I suspect the
only practical thing keeping diverted passenger services off the route would
be lack of capacity - it is intended to run the 16 tph 7/7. But in dire
emergency you wouldn't think there'd be a problem getting at least any other
DC Electrostar variant through.

Having said that would there ever be a practical requirement - the only
thing I can think of might be ECS moves to recover stock after an emergency
Thameslink closure (or vice versa) but they can use the WLL?

Someone will now say it can't be done because the core ELL isn't part of the
'national network', but IMHO that is purely an administrative obstacle.

Can't see Freight though, although it would be gauge (and gradient)
dependent too, only 92s would really be suitable traction, and they don't
seem to have route cleared them in south London at all yet...

Paul S

First train tested on East London Line
 

In article ,
"Paul Scott" wrote:


I don't think there are any significant gauging issues there - I suspect the
only practical thing keeping diverted passenger services off the route would
be lack of capacity - it is intended to run the 16 tph 7/7. But in dire
emergency you wouldn't think there'd be a problem getting at least any other
DC Electrostar variant through.

I think if they'd had a bit more cash they could have at least added a
third line along the stretch from Dalston to wherever possible
southwards - after all that trackbed used to have four tracks - I think?

E.

First train tested on East London Line
 

"eastender" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Paul Scott" wrote:


I don't think there are any significant gauging issues there - I suspect
the
only practical thing keeping diverted passenger services off the route
would
be lack of capacity - it is intended to run the 16 tph 7/7. But in dire
emergency you wouldn't think there'd be a problem getting at least any
other
DC Electrostar variant through.

I think if they'd had a bit more cash they could have at least added a
third line along the stretch from Dalston to wherever possible
southwards - after all that trackbed used to have four tracks - I think?

What would be the point? You could hardly get M I Brunel (even assisted by
his son) back to dig you another tunnel under the Thames.

Peter

First train tested on East London Line
 

On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:16:26 +0100 someone who may be eastender
wrote this:-

I think if they'd had a bit more cash they could have at least added a
third line along the stretch from Dalston to wherever possible
southwards - after all that trackbed used to have four tracks - I think?

The line was widened over the years, but IIRC four tracks ran all
the way northwards from Broad Street station to Dalston Junction.
IIRC they were called the No 1 and No 2 lines and it was the former
which were electrified. At Dalston Junction four lines turned west
and two lines turned west. The electrified lines were used by
services to places like Watford Junction and Richmond, the
non-electrified lines were used by services to places like Welwyn
Garden City and, in earlier times, services to the docks.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

First train tested on East London Line
 

"David Hansen" wrote in message

On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:16:26 +0100 someone who may be eastender
wrote this:-

I think if they'd had a bit more cash they could have at least added
a third line along the stretch from Dalston to wherever possible
southwards - after all that trackbed used to have four tracks - I
think?

The line was widened over the years, but IIRC four tracks ran all
the way northwards from Broad Street station to Dalston Junction.
IIRC they were called the No 1 and No 2 lines and it was the former
which were electrified. At Dalston Junction four lines turned west
and two lines turned west. The electrified lines were used by
services to places like Watford Junction and Richmond, the
non-electrified lines were used by services to places like Welwyn
Garden City and, in earlier times, services to the docks.

I believe that the two new stations on the old Broad St line take
advantage of the four-track formation. In other words, the new platforms
are built over the previous outer lines. So they wouldn't have been able
to fit in more than double track on the viaduct south of Dalston.

First train tested on East London Line
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...

I believe that the two new stations on the old Broad St line take
advantage of the four-track formation. In other words, the new platforms
are built over the previous outer lines. So they wouldn't have been able
to fit in more than double track on the viaduct south of Dalston.

They certainly do, in fact the BBC time lapse video linked to in the other
thread shows how the two tracks take full advantage of the whole formation -
using both of the existing Kingsland Rd overbridges is a further example.

Paul S

First train tested on East London Line
 

Going back to the comment about freight, surely a leading question is
''what freight?''.

Time and time again in this forum I see cooments about retaining or
enhancing capcity for freight ... but ... apart from a few routes like
out of Southampton or Felixstowe, there is nothing in the way of
sustained *growing* freight. Yes we get a block train here or a new
flow there, but they are often replacements for something else [that
the media releases conveniently forget to mention] or are short term -
5 years or even 10 years per flow does not justify the serious works
needed to run freight under London.

I agree the issue about LO being operationally NR is a red herring,
but surely it is funded by TfL, and while that organisation does
contribute to the freight deabte, it surely is not in the business of
funding infrastructure work to allow the occasional diverted or short-
cut freight or path. (Obviously its involved where freights *already*
run, and the NLL is a serious freight line.)

On top of I don't see what contribution freight over ELLX would make
at all. Its in the wrong place, and actually trying to path freight to
potential main line junctions would be horrendous.

If one argues that it should be ready for the future, when road truck
diesel oil as run out, and freight swings to rail. But, at that point,
the London passenger rail network will be under such strain that there
won't be freight paths in between passenger trains because buses and
cars won't have fuel either.

I think some people seem to have locked themselves in ''its ex BR''
''ex main line'' therefore it must take freight. But would the same
people suggest freight on the Met and District lines during their
respective upgrades ? And start talking about 92s around the Circle ?
Ditto, Crossrail and Thameslink ?

--
Nick

First train tested on East London Line
 

On 8 Oct, 17:46, D7666 wrote:
Going back to the comment about freight, surely a leading question is
''what freight?''.

Time and time again in this forum I see cooments about retaining or
enhancing capcity for freight ... but ... apart from a few routes like
out of Southampton or Felixstowe, there is nothing in the way of
sustained *growing* freight.


While I can't see much call for freight on the ELL, isn't most such
enhancement intended to get what freight there already is out of the
way so that passenger services can be enhanced?

First train tested on East London Line
 

In article ,
"Peter Masson" wrote:


What would be the point? You could hardly get M I Brunel (even assisted by
his son) back to dig you another tunnel under the Thames.

Yes, but I see a long dark tunnel ahead with the Tories.

E.

First train tested on East London Line
 

In message
eastender wrote:

In article ,
"Peter Masson" wrote:


What would be the point? You could hardly get M I Brunel (even assisted by
his son) back to dig you another tunnel under the Thames.

Yes, but I see a long dark tunnel ahead with the Tories.


You won't if the right wing get their way and cut us off from the continent.

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

First train tested on East London Line
 

On Oct 8, 6:52*pm, rail wrote:

You won't if the right wing get their way and cut us off from the continent.

First train tested on East London Line
 

In message
D7666 wrote:

On Oct 8, 6:52*pm, rail wrote:

You won't if the right wing get their way and cut us off from the continent.

But we will see a green navigation light on the right wing won't we ?

Or will they make it blue ?


It's*only the yellow filter on the window that makes it appear green...

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

First train tested on East London Line
 

On Oct 8, 5:46*pm, D7666 wrote:
Going back to the comment about freight, surely a leading question is
''what freight?''.

Time and time again in this forum I see cooments about retaining or
enhancing capcity for freight ... but ... apart from a few routes like
out of Southampton or Felixstowe, there is nothing in the way of
sustained *growing* freight. Yes we get a block train here or a new
flow there, but they are often replacements for something else [that
the media releases conveniently forget to mention] or are short term -
5 years or even 10 years per flow does not justify the serious works
needed to run freight under London.

I agree the issue about LO being operationally NR is a red herring,
but surely it is funded by TfL, and while that organisation does
contribute to the freight deabte, it surely is not in the business of
funding infrastructure work to allow the *occasional diverted or short-
cut freight or path. (Obviously its involved where freights *already*
run, and the NLL is a serious freight line.)

On top of I don't see what contribution freight over ELLX would make
at all. Its in the wrong place, and actually trying to path freight to
potential main line junctions would be horrendous.

If one argues that it should be ready for the future, when road truck
diesel oil as run out, and freight swings to rail. But, at that point,
the London passenger rail network will be under such strain that there
won't be freight paths in between passenger trains because buses and
cars won't have fuel either.

I think some people seem to have locked themselves in ''its ex BR''
''ex main line'' therefore it must take freight. But would the same
people suggest freight on the Met and District lines during their
respective upgrades ? And start talking about 92s around the Circle ?
Ditto, Crossrail and Thameslink ?


I agree that the chances of freight on the ELL are low, as well as the
reasons given above, the design of Phase 1a (the Dalston to Highbury
and Islington section) doesn't have a connection for anything except
running though towards West Coast Mainline. There will be no link
between the ELLX and the Canonbury line to the ECML and there will be
no east facing connection at Dalston, and so the ELL will be the long
way around. Engineering trains may be the only non-passenger trains we
will see on the route.

First train tested on East London Line
 

In article ,
rail wrote:

In message
D7666 wrote:

But we will see a green navigation light on the right wing won't we ?

Or will they make it blue ?

It's*only the yellow filter on the window that makes it appear green...

I note that railway practice includes putting a blue(ish) filter in
front of a yellow(ish) light to make a green signal, but in general a
properly yellow filter in front of a properly blue light would appear
dark.

Sam

First train tested on East London Line
 

On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:11:49 +0100 someone who may be Sam Wilson
wrote this:-

I note that railway practice includes putting a blue(ish) filter in
front of a yellow(ish) light to make a green signal

With oil lit semaphores. Electrically lit semaphores and colour
light signals are different.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

First train tested on East London Line
 

In message
Sam Wilson wrote:

In article ,
rail wrote:

In message
D7666 wrote:

But we will see a green navigation light on the right wing won't we ?

Or will they make it blue ?

It's*only the yellow filter on the window that makes it appear green...

I note that railway practice includes putting a blue(ish) filter in
front of a yellow(ish) light to make a green signal, but in general a
properly yellow filter in front of a properly blue light would appear
dark.


There's always someone who has to bring reality into the discussion :-)

I was actually (deliberately) confusing additive and subtractive colour
mixing. I hadn't realise there was a proper railway connection.

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

First train tested on East London Line
 

In article ,
rail wrote:

There's always someone who has to bring reality into the discussion :-)

The price of pedantry is eternal vigilance.

I was actually (deliberately) confusing additive and subtractive colour
mixing. ...

Thought so.

... I hadn't realise there was a proper railway connection.

Terribly sorry old chap. Bad form to bring things on topic. I believe
I believe I left my old service revolver in the library desk. I'll just
go and clean it...

Sam

First train tested on East London Line
 

In message
Sam Wilson wrote:

In article ,
rail wrote:

There's always someone who has to bring reality into the discussion :-)

The price of pedantry is eternal vigilance.

I was actually (deliberately) confusing additive and subtractive colour
mixing. ...

Thought so.

... I hadn't realise there was a proper railway connection.

Terribly sorry old chap. Bad form to bring things on topic. I believe
I believe I left my old service revolver in the library desk. I'll just
go and clean it...


Trust you have the last of the 1746 brandy to drink first.

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

First train tested on East London Line
 

Paul Scott wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message
...

I believe that the two new stations on the old Broad St line take
advantage of the four-track formation. In other words, the new platforms
are built over the previous outer lines. So they wouldn't have been able
to fit in more than double track on the viaduct south of Dalston.

They certainly do, in fact the BBC time lapse video linked to in the other
thread shows how the two tracks take full advantage of the whole formation -
using both of the existing Kingsland Rd overbridges is a further example.

Paul S



The two previous stations on this section had enough space, in terms of
viaduct widening) to have allowed for platforms and four tracks (two
tracks with platforms + two non-platformed tracks) but the two new
stations have been built in different positions where the viaduct is
only wide enough for either four tracks or two tracks with platforms.

Shoreditch station (above Old Street) would have seemed to be in a
convenient location but the Hoxton station 'replacement' is
significantly further north. Not sure about the rationale behind this
but maybe something to do with regeneration of a very run down area (or
the adjacent Geffrye Museum has some very powerful friends!). The other
Shoreditch station further south (the East London line one) has its own
replacement station at Shoreditch High Street, and may have been
considered geographically too near to make reopening the Broad Street
line's Shoreditch station viable.
(Hope that makes sense)

The new Haggerston station is located on the north side of Lee Street,
whereas the old one was on the south side. Looking at the BBC video
clip, it seems one of the old platforms is still in situ (on the right
hand side just before reaching the new station).

Interesting that the rebuilt Dalston Junction station is now underground.


http://www.abandonedstations.org.uk/...et_line_1.html

First train tested on East London Line
 

On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:21:11 +0100, Subterraneo
wrote:

Interesting that the rebuilt Dalston Junction station is now underground.

That's to allow for a bus interchange above.

First train tested on East London Line
 

"Mr G" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:21:11 +0100, Subterraneo
wrote:

Interesting that the rebuilt Dalston Junction station is now underground.

That's to allow for a bus interchange above.

I think there is definitley a bus interchange in there somewhere, but the
vast majority of the slab is to support a high rise development of some
sort, even if it might be somewhat delayed due to the downturn.

Paul S

First train tested on East London Line
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 11:53:21 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"Mr G" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:21:11 +0100, Subterraneo
wrote:

Interesting that the rebuilt Dalston Junction station is now underground.
That's to allow for a bus interchange above.
I think there is definitley a bus interchange in there somewhere, but the
vast majority of the slab is to support a high rise development of some
sort, even if it might be somewhat delayed due to the downturn.

Correct - there most certainly is a bus interchange. It's why they've
knocked a hole through some old shops to create an opening into
Kingsland Road to allow some of the local routes in and out. There is
also an over station development of shops plus housing. Given the
intensity of bus services plus a decent Overground service (once all up
and running) it'll be a well connected place to live.

I haven't yet seen the related set of bus changes for when Overground
opens through here except that the 488 is to be extended from Clapton
via Shacklewell / Stoke Newington to Dalston Junction. This provides a
bus service to an area that is slightly remote from the bus network.

Whta's up with HIghbury Corner, BTW? Are they going to rework that area?
I remember reading that such plans exist, and so I was wondering if that
is that will be the case when they close Gospel Oak-Stratford in January.

First train tested on East London Line
 

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, Paul Corfield wrote:

I haven't yet seen the related set of bus changes for when Overground
opens through here except that the 488 is to be extended from Clapton
via Shacklewell / Stoke Newington to Dalston Junction. This provides a
bus service to an area that is slightly remote from the bus network.

Ah, Shacklewell. I've always thought that was a rather fascinating area,
and not just because of the prostitutes - it's sort of an island, or a
eddy, isolated and quiet. Reminds me a bit of Somers Town.

tom

--
PS I am trying to stab a giant warthog in the arse but it keeps throwing
me off a bridge :( -- Martin Lewis

First train tested on East London Line
 

On Thu, 8 Oct 2009, Peter Masson wrote:

"eastender" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Paul Scott" wrote:

I don't think there are any significant gauging issues there - I
suspect the only practical thing keeping diverted passenger services
off the route would be lack of capacity - it is intended to run the 16
tph 7/7. But in dire emergency you wouldn't think there'd be a problem
getting at least any other DC Electrostar variant through.

I think if they'd had a bit more cash they could have at least added a
third line along the stretch from Dalston to wherever possible
southwards - after all that trackbed used to have four tracks - I think?

What would be the point? You could hardly get M I Brunel (even assisted by
his son) back to dig you another tunnel under the Thames.

I dunno - he's got an advantage in that he'd be starting off underground.

tom

--
double mashed, future mashed, millennium mashed; man it was mashed