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"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
Hundreds of people have criminal records for travelling without paying
the fare. All you have failed to discover, is reports of the
circumstances, in the press.

There is a difference between travelling without a ticket as a deliberate
act of avoidance, which is clearly covered by common law and
probably specific acts of parliament, and having a valid ticket and boarding
the wrong train in error. Most UK law requires either proof of intention or
willful ignorance.
As I said earlier terms and conditions do not apply as that requires a
contract to be entered into and this requires a 'consideration' by both
parties which is normally a service or goods by one party and money on the
other. So we are clearly under law. If you look up any law they are always
detailed. The 10 commandments may say 'thou shall not commit murder' but the
UK law will be considerably longer with definitions of what 'murder' is.
Similarly there will not be a law just saying 'It is an offence to board a
train without a valid ticket'

I have tried finding the actual statute, so far I can only find the charge
has the words 'dishonesty in it, clearly an error in boarding the wrong
train does not form a dishonest act, merely a stupid one.

I will continue to search for the actual act, I have established that it is
definitely criminal and it is processed by the Transport Police, the terms
and conditions say that if you accept the decision of the company they will
not pass the matter over to the transport police. It is not in the power of
the company to prosecute, that will be the Crown Prosecution after a report
from the Transport Police.

The transport company have to take the stance that penalty fares are always
payable otherwise it leaves them open to false claims. I very much doubt
there has been a case where a person who has a valid ticket for a train
journey and a credible case for believing they have boarded the wrong train
ever being prosecuted. If only the rail company would hate to establish a
precedent by loosing. After all they really want to stop people avoiding
fares, not create an alternative income stream. No fines will stop people
boarding the wrong train.

Incidentally I have been on an RA flight where one passenger was on the
wrong plane, even RA was arranging to get him back to origin free of charge!

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"asdf" wrote in message
...
that some ticket inspectors are
trained to interpret willingness to pay the penalty fare as evidence
of deliberate fare evasion, and therefore refuse to allow the
passenger to pay the penalty fare, instead insisting on prosecution.

Since it is criminal law they can only pass the person over to British
Transport Police and then it is up to Crown Prosecution whether a
prosecution proceeds.

This is because in many areas, ticket inspections are rare enough that
it'd be cheaper to pay the penalty fare on every inspection than to
buy a ticket for every journey.

I believe German public transport works on a 1 in 10 risk of being caught
and a penalty of 10 times the fare.
They are quite strict. At Berlin I bought a ticket but failed to validate it
on the platform. As a kindness to a stupid tourist they did not fine me but
made ne vacate
the train to validate but then had to wait for the next train.

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On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 06:18:51 -0000, "Buddenbrooks"
wrote:

The transport company have to take the stance that penalty fares are always
payable otherwise it leaves them open to false claims. I very much doubt
there has been a case where a person who has a valid ticket for a train
journey and a credible case for believing they have boarded the wrong train
ever being prosecuted. If only the rail company would hate to establish a
precedent by loosing. After all they really want to stop people avoiding
fares, not create an alternative income stream. No fines will stop people
boarding the wrong train.

And people who board the wrong train aren't going to say "fair cop,
here's 20 quid". They're going to explain what has happened and hope
they get away with it.

Incidentally I have been on an RA flight where one passenger was on the
wrong plane, even RA was arranging to get him back to origin free of charge!

I don't know about PF areas, but MX is that usually people who boarded
the wrong train are sent back from whence they came and told to
explain what happened to anyone that asks, not charged an extra fare,
Penalty or otherwise.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

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In message , at 06:47:56 on Tue,
27 Oct 2009, Neil Williams remarked:
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 06:18:51 -0000, "Buddenbrooks"
wrote:

The transport company have to take the stance that penalty fares are always
payable otherwise it leaves them open to false claims. I very much doubt
there has been a case where a person who has a valid ticket for a train
journey and a credible case for believing they have boarded the wrong train
ever being prosecuted. If only the rail company would hate to establish a
precedent by loosing. After all they really want to stop people avoiding
fares, not create an alternative income stream. No fines will stop people
boarding the wrong train.

And people who board the wrong train aren't going to say "fair cop,
here's 20 quid". They're going to explain what has happened and hope
they get away with it.

And despite the nonsense about "contracts" spouted by Mr B, if they are
told that all they can do is pay the "full single fare" (which is in the
region of £65 for Leicester-London) a refusal will eventually end them
in court.

Incidentally I have been on an RA flight where one passenger was on the
wrong plane, even RA was arranging to get him back to origin free of charge!

I don't know about PF areas, but MX is that usually people who boarded
the wrong train are sent back from whence they came and told to
explain what happened to anyone that asks, not charged an extra fare,
Penalty or otherwise.

I've never heard that offered as an option for people caught on the
"wrong train" or with an "accidentally invalid"[1] ticket on an
'intercity' train. No, it's "pay up or else". And iirc the PF is only
£20 if the proper fare is £20, otherwise it's the higher amount.

[1] for example; an Open ticket used outside of the dates of validity,
when the person didn't understand fully what the rules were.
--
Roland Perry

Heads up - Panorama tonight, BBC1 8.30pm
 

In message , at 06:18:51 on Tue, 27 Oct
2009, Buddenbrooks remarked:
Similarly there will not be a law just saying 'It is an offence to
board a train without a valid ticket'

You probably need to read the relevant Transport Act.
--
Roland Perry

Heads up - Panorama tonight, BBC1 8.30pm
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 06:18:51 on Tue, 27 Oct
2009, Buddenbrooks remarked:
Similarly there will not be a law just saying 'It is an offence to
board a train without a valid ticket'

You probably need to read the relevant Transport Act.

Regulation of Railways Act 1889
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content...oc Id=1061371
--
David Biddulph
Rowing web pages at
http://www.biddulph.org.uk/

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Buddenbrooks wrote i

Since it is criminal law they can only pass the person over to
British
Transport Police and then it is up to Crown Prosecution whether a
prosecution proceeds.

Not so, it appears that TOCS and bus companies do private prosecutions
as they have since that Regulation of Railways Act 1889 and indeed
before.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/crime/ps/s...laidcrime?page
=6

== Since legislation in 1999 a rail operator can revoke a Penalty Fare
if it is not paid and pursue the case as a criminal offence of fare
evasion.

Some operators use their in-house Private Prosecutions Unit in order to
deal with Penalty Fares, on the basis that the CPS does not have
first-hand experience of working on the railway, and that taking it
in-house avoids unnecessary delays, and gives the operator greater
control and a better chance of success.

In terms of their success rate, private prosecutions appear on the
whole to be highly effective in using the legal system to tackle fare
evasion. ==


--
Mike D

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In message 01ca5720$d8b522c0$LocalHost@default, at 16:20:58 on Tue, 27
Oct 2009, Michael R N Dolbear quoted DfT thus:

In terms of their success rate, private prosecutions appear on the
whole to be highly effective in using the legal system to tackle fare
evasion.

Just as the police are not automatically the investigators of all crimes
[1], the CPS isn't the only prosecutor either.

It also used to be the case (not sure of current status) that "Car Tax"
evaders were also prosecuted privately, in that case by people employed
in regional DVLA offices.

[1] As a trivial but robust example, HMR&C investigates tax evasion.
--
Roland Perry

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"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01ca5720$d8b522c0$LocalHost@default...
Buddenbrooks wrote i


http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/crime/ps/s...laidcrime?page
=6


This gives me page not found, even after correcting the wrap

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"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message 01ca5720$d8b522c0$LocalHost@default, at 16:20:58 on Tue, 27
Oct 2009, Michael R N Dolbear quoted DfT thus:

In terms of their success rate, private prosecutions appear on the
whole to be highly effective in using the legal system to tackle fare
evasion.

Just as the police are not automatically the investigators of all crimes
[1], the CPS isn't the only prosecutor either.

It also used to be the case (not sure of current status) that "Car Tax"
evaders were also prosecuted privately, in that case by people employed in
regional DVLA offices.

[1] As a trivial but robust example, HMR&C investigates tax evasion.

All prosecutions are under the approval of the CPS. They may do nothing
and a prosecution can be made by others,
but the CPS can stop a private prosecution if they feel that it is not in
the public interest.
This unfortunately has made the courts more political than when the police
instigated proceedings.