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Now that the new wide gates have replaced the old manual ones I notice
a reduction in staff hear the barriers. A couple of time recently at High Street Ken at about 2000 there have been no staff visible anywhere. Are we moving to the Paris Metro situation where the staff can remain in the office and only come out if there is a problem or are they reducing the number of staff at stations ? |
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trainmanUK gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying: Are we moving to the Paris Metro situation where the staff can remain in the office and only come out if there is a problem Moving to? That's been the case at some tube stations since barriers were installed. No staff on duty, barriers left open (where there are barriers). |
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On 22 Oct 2009 09:21:26 GMT
Adrian wrote: trainmanUK gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: Are we moving to the Paris Metro situation where the staff can remain in the office and only come out if there is a problem Moving to? That's been the case at some tube stations since barriers were installed. No staff on duty, barriers left open (where there are barriers). Not at my station where in the mornings 2 or 3 of the staff crowd around the barriers watching everyone going through. Its nice to have staff at hand if theres a problem but the way this lot do it its like going through the bouncers at a club. B2003 |
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On 22 Oct 2009 09:21:26 GMT, Adrian wrote:
That's been the case at some tube stations since barriers were installed. No staff on duty, barriers left open (where there are barriers). I forget where it was, but I have had to barge through a barrier at a LU station because it was left with no staff on duty, the manual gate locked *and* the emergency open button was non-functional. I had a valid ticket which had worked fine elsewhere but for some reason wouldn't activate any of the barriers on that barrier line. With hindsight I should have reported this, as it could have become a very serious issue in the event of a fire. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
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In message , at 10:58:17 on Thu, 22 Oct 2009,
remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. -- Roland Perry |
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"trainmanUK" wrote in message
... Now that the new wide gates have replaced the old manual ones I notice a reduction in staff hear the barriers. A couple of time recently at High Street Ken at about 2000 there have been no staff visible anywhere. Are we moving to the Paris Metro situation where the staff can remain in the office and only come out if there is a problem or are they reducing the number of staff at stations ? Some years ago I was with a colleague at La Defense and his ticket wouldn't work, no one came to his aid despite my shouting in my best Franglais at the ticket office clerk, and in the end he had to climb over the barrier. Nobody objected! MaxB |
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Paul Corfield wrote on 22 October 2009 19:07:48 ...
On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:57:55 +0100, "Batman55" wrote: "trainmanUK" wrote in message ... Now that the new wide gates have replaced the old manual ones I notice a reduction in staff hear the barriers. A couple of time recently at High Street Ken at about 2000 there have been no staff visible anywhere. Are we moving to the Paris Metro situation where the staff can remain in the office and only come out if there is a problem or are they reducing the number of staff at stations ? Some years ago I was with a colleague at La Defense and his ticket wouldn't work, no one came to his aid despite my shouting in my best Franglais at the ticket office clerk, and in the end he had to climb over the barrier. Nobody objected! Been there, done that too! Well yes but La Defense is a perfect example of the nonsense of Paris's fare scheme once outside the central area. The Metro to La Defense is all flat fare. If you use the RER it is in Zone 2 or 3 and therefore there are gates to check whether you have a valid ticket [1]. People moan about London's alleged lack of fare integration but we don't have that sort of nonsense although Thameslink at Farringdon might get close. Heathrow is an exactly similar situation. A Z1-6 Travelcard will get you to Heathrow on the Piccadilly, but only as far as Hayes & Harlington on Heathrow Connect, which for most of its journey is an ordinary suburban stopping train. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
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On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:57:55 +0100, Batman55 wrote:
"trainmanUK" wrote in message ... Some years ago I was with a colleague at La Defense and his ticket wouldn't work, no one came to his aid despite my shouting in my best Franglais at the ticket office clerk, and in the end he had to climb over the barrier. Nobody objected! Seems like La Defense has issues. I got there by tram, which I assumed, like the Metro, had no zonal restrictions. It turns out that it does, so my pass wasn't valid for xit there. And there was nowhere inside the gates to pay the excess fare (or even to purchase a full ticket). Nor could I get back on the tram and go back the way I came, since I had already left the gated area for the tram. And there was no one there who appeared able to help - in any language. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
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On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:26:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:58:17 on Thu, 22 Oct 2009, remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. They managed a flat fare in New York. You ever looked at the distance between Times Square and Far Rockaway? B2003 |
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On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 19:02:29 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote: On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:58:17 +0000 (UTC), wrote: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. But we don't and never, ever will have so have a nice daydream. Well no we won't - not while public transport is looked upon as a potential money making business rather than a public service. B2003 |
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On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 05:26:52PM +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:58:17 on Thu, 22 Oct 2009, remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. It's quite right that people should be penalised for taking the tube from Covent Garden to Leicester Square instead of walking. -- David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire On the bright side, if sendmail is tied up routing spam and pointless uknot posts, it's not waving its arse around saying "root me!" -- Peter Corlett, in uknot |
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On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:53:01 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote: It's quite right that people should be penalised for taking the tube from Covent Garden to Leicester Square instead of walking. And is slightly less ridiculous than the fact that someone doing a single journey by bus that involves 3 buses has to pay 3 times as much as someone doing a single journey involving 1 bus. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
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Neil Williams wrote:
On 22 Oct 2009 09:21:26 GMT, Adrian wrote: I had a valid ticket which had worked fine elsewhere but for some reason wouldn't activate any of the barriers on that barrier line. With hindsight I should have reported this, as it could have become a very serious issue in the event of a fire. I doubt your ticket would have gone up in flames. LOROL!! |
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In message , at 11:53:01
on Fri, 23 Oct 2009, David Cantrell remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. It's quite right that people should be penalised for taking the tube from Covent Garden to Leicester Square instead of walking. Indeed, but it's the example most often used round here. What do you think the flat would need to be, to cope with journeys inside Z1 and also to Aylesbury, Heathrow and Epping? -- Roland Perry |
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On 23 Oct, 16:42, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:53:01 on Fri, 23 Oct 2009, David Cantrell remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. It's quite right that people should be penalised for taking the tube from Covent Garden to Leicester Square instead of walking. Indeed, but it's the example most often used round here. What do you think the flat would need to be, to cope with journeys inside Z1 and also to Aylesbury, Heathrow and Epping? Opening the bidding at 5p. |
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In message of Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:26:52
in uk.transport.london, Roland Perry writes In message , at 10:58:17 on Thu, 22 Oct 2009, remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. Why Aylesbury? http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/metropolitan.html has "1961-09-10 Amersham to Aylesbury (1) withdrawn" Could Boris, with his interest in Ancient History, be persuaded to organise Oyster access to this line? It is only 4 stations: Great Missenden, Wendover, Stoke Mandeville and Aylesbury. -- Walter Briscoe |
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On 24 Oct, 07:33, Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message of Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:26:52 in uk.transport.london, Roland Perry writes In message , at 10:58:17 on Thu, 22 Oct 2009, remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. Why Aylesbury? http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/metropolitan.html has "1961-09-10 *Amersham to Aylesbury (1) withdrawn" Could Boris, with his interest in Ancient History, be persuaded to organise Oyster access to this line? It is only 4 stations: Great Missenden, Wendover, Stoke Mandeville and Aylesbury. -- Walter Briscoe But evidently popular enough that a couple of peak trains miss out Amersham and go non-stop just to those last four stations. |
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Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:53:01 on Fri, 23 Oct 2009, David Cantrell remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. It's quite right that people should be penalised for taking the tube from Covent Garden to Leicester Square instead of walking. Indeed, but it's the example most often used round here. What do you think the flat would need to be, to cope with journeys inside Z1 and also to Aylesbury, Heathrow and Epping? There are no plans to revive LUL Amersham-Aylesbury service, are there? |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:57:55 +0100, "Batman55" wrote: "trainmanUK" wrote in message ... Now that the new wide gates have replaced the old manual ones I notice a reduction in staff hear the barriers. A couple of time recently at High Street Ken at about 2000 there have been no staff visible anywhere. Are we moving to the Paris Metro situation where the staff can remain in the office and only come out if there is a problem or are they reducing the number of staff at stations ? Some years ago I was with a colleague at La Defense and his ticket wouldn't work, no one came to his aid despite my shouting in my best Franglais at the ticket office clerk, and in the end he had to climb over the barrier. Nobody objected! Well yes but La Defense is a perfect example of the nonsense of Paris's fare scheme once outside the central area. The Metro to La Defense is all flat fare. If you use the RER it is in Zone 2 or 3 and therefore there are gates to check whether you have a valid ticket [1]. People moan about London's alleged lack of fare integration but we don't have that sort of nonsense although Thameslink at Farringdon might get close. Still I am sure someone will invent a Crossrail premium zone [2] sometime between now and it opening as a way to screw more revenue out of passengers. [1] I, too, once got caught out there but was let out of the gateline with a gallic shrug by the member of station staff. [2] in the same way that people invented a new zone for the cross river section between Island Gardens and Greenwich as a way of creating a specific revenue stream to pay the "toll" the infrastructure owner levies on DLR for use of that link. Thankfully Mr Prescott stopped that particular bit of nonsense before the line opened. Don't special fares apply between Kenton and Harrow & Wealdstone, on the Bakerloo Line? What's that about? |
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On Oct 24, 8:21*am, "
wrote: wrote: On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:26:52 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:58:17 on Thu, 22 Oct 2009, remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. They managed a flat fare in New York. You ever looked at the distance between Times Square and Far Rockaway? B2003 It used to be a double fare out to Far Rockaway some years ago, though, wasn't it? How did that work?- Exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required two tokens. There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks). |
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Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 24, 8:21 am, " wrote: wrote: On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:26:52 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:58:17 on Thu, 22 Oct 2009, remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. They managed a flat fare in New York. You ever looked at the distance between Times Square and Far Rockaway? B2003 It used to be a double fare out to Far Rockaway some years ago, though, wasn't it? How did that work?- Exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required two tokens. There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks). Why did they do that, how long did it last and why did they discontinue it? |
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In message of Sat, 24 Oct 2009
13:29:48 in uk.transport.london, " writes [snip] Don't special fares apply between Kenton and Harrow & Wealdstone, on the Bakerloo Line? What's that about? I think you are confused. I have been to Harrow & Wealdstone without needing to pay a special fare. "Watford Junction (special fares apply)" is in http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-to-fares-and- tickets-Zones-7-9-plus-watford-junction.pdf ISTR stations north of H&W became part of the LU ticketing system when London Overground took over that line. Trains only take 7 minutes between Watford High Street in zone 8 and Watford Junction. -- Walter Briscoe |
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On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 14:36:45 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
Don't special fares apply between Kenton and Harrow & Wealdstone, on the Bakerloo Line? What's that about? I think that has gone since PAYG was launched and TfL took over London Overground. It's just moved north - special fares now apply between Watford High Street and Watford Junction. |
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"Walter Briscoe" wrote in message
In message of Sat, 24 Oct 2009 13:29:48 in uk.transport.london, " writes [snip] Don't special fares apply between Kenton and Harrow & Wealdstone, on the Bakerloo Line? What's that about? I think you are confused. I have been to Harrow & Wealdstone without needing to pay a special fare. "Watford Junction (special fares apply)" is in http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-to-fares-and- tickets-Zones-7-9-plus-watford-junction.pdf ISTR stations north of H&W became part of the LU ticketing system when London Overground took over that line. Trains only take 7 minutes between Watford High Street in zone 8 and Watford Junction. The mainline (LM and SN) trains only take that long between H&W and Watford Junction. |
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wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:26:52 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:58:17 on Thu, 22 Oct 2009, remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. They managed a flat fare in New York. You ever looked at the distance between Times Square and Far Rockaway? NY's flat fare only worked because geology and history combined to provide a system that doesn't have the lack of capacity in the central area that is experienced by London. If you can imagine London with most of the central zone lines sub-surface rather than deep tunnel, and express and local services on each route (especially the east-west routes), then you could start thinking about a flat fare. Having 2 or 3 large mainline hub termini in the middle rather than a load of smaller stations scattered around the edge would help as well. Dream on ... D A Stocks |
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Michael Finfer wrote:
wrote: Peter T. Daniels wrote: On Oct 24, 8:21 am, " wrote: wrote: On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:26:52 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:58:17 on Thu, 22 Oct 2009, remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. They managed a flat fare in New York. You ever looked at the distance between Times Square and Far Rockaway? B2003 It used to be a double fare out to Far Rockaway some years ago, though, wasn't it? How did that work?- Exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required two tokens. There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks). Why did they do that, how long did it last and why did they discontinue it? It lasted from the opening of the line in the mid-50's until the late 70's. When the fare went from 35 to 50 cents, the Rockaways fare went from 70 to 50 cents. Michael Finfer Bridgewater, NJ Why were the Rockaways a double fare zone anyway? Was it because of distance or to pay the costs of taking over the line from the LIRR? |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 13:29:48 +0100, " wrote: Don't special fares apply between Kenton and Harrow & Wealdstone, on the Bakerloo Line? What's that about? I think that has gone since PAYG was launched and TfL took over London Overground. The answer to your question would be "history and BR and then TOC intransigence". LUL tried to get rid of that nonsense years ago and was told to "go away" ever so politely by the "big railway". What was the difference in fares? Also, was the section between Kenton and H&W operated by National Rail? What about between Queen's Park and Kenton? |
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On Oct 24, 1:24*pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote: On Oct 24, 8:21 am, " wrote: wrote: On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:26:52 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:58:17 on Thu, 22 Oct 2009, remarked: If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving turnstyles. A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold. They managed a flat fare in New York. You ever looked at the distance between Times Square and Far Rockaway? B2003 It used to be a double fare out to Far Rockaway some years ago, though, wasn't it? How did that work?- Exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required two tokens. There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks). Here's a scan of the transfer:http://www.thejoekorner.com/transfers/rockline.gif The local passenger still paid the double fare. *Paid three on entering and got one back on the exit. *This was to protect the then private bus company from 'unfair' competition from the city owned subway line. How did they get the third token from the local traveler? We had a "bungalow" there in 1955 or 1956 (whichever summer the major hurricane threatened, so we had to leave ahead of schedule), and I remember the double fare. |
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Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 24, 1:24*pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote: Here's a scan of the transfer: http://www.thejoekorner.com/transfers/rockline.gif The local passenger still paid the double fare. *Paid three on entering and got one back on the exit. *This was to protect the then private bus company from 'unfair' competition from the city owned subway line. How did they get the third token from the local traveler? If you follow the link to image, you'll see that the transfer is called a "Special Refund Ticket" which cost one token, refundable upon exiting at an eligible station. -- Steven O'Neill Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo |
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On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 16:38:38 +0100
"David A Stocks" wrote: They managed a flat fare in New York. You ever looked at the distance between Times Square and Far Rockaway? NY's flat fare only worked because geology and history combined to provide a system that doesn't have the lack of capacity in the central area that is experienced by London. If you can imagine London with most of the central zone lines sub-surface rather than deep tunnel, and express and local services on each route (especially the east-west routes), then you could start thinking about a flat fare. Having 2 or 3 large mainline hub termini in the middle rather than a load of smaller stations scattered around the edge would help as well. Sorry , I don't follow your reasoning. So because new york has more stations and lines in the central area it can charge a flat fare? Eh? I know NYC has twice the number of stations than london (but the same route miles) but that means twice the maintenance costs all other things being equal so if anything it should be a reason NOT to have a flat fare. B2003 |
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Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 24, 1:24 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote: Peter T. Daniels wrote: exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required two tokens. There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks). Here's a scan of the transfer:http://www.thejoekorner.com/transfers/rockline.gif The local passenger still paid the double fare. Paid three on entering and got one back on the exit. This was to protect the then private bus company from 'unfair' competition from the city owned subway line. How did they get the third token from the local traveler? We had a "bungalow" there in 1955 or 1956 (whichever summer the major hurricane threatened, so we had to leave ahead of schedule), and I remember the double fare. The back of the transfer explains it. You 'buy' the transfer from the RR Clerk plus the two token to get into the system. When you leave the system, you turn in the transfer and the clerk lets you out without using the turnstile. You got your choice of either the cash fare or a token. -- ------------------------------------------------- | Joseph D. Korman | | | | Visit The JoeKorNer at | | http://www.thejoekorner.com | |-------------------------------------------------| | The light at the end of the tunnel ... | | may be a train going the other way! | | Brooklyn Tech Grads build things that work!('66)| |-------------------------------------------------| | All outgoing E-mail is scanned by NAV | ------------------------------------------------- |
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On Oct 24, 5:22*pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote: On Oct 24, 1:24 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote: Peter T. Daniels wrote: exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required two tokens. There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks). Here's a scan of the transfer:http://www.thejoekorner.com/transfers/rockline.gif The local passenger still paid the double fare. *Paid three on entering and got one back on the exit. *This was to protect the then private bus company from 'unfair' competition from the city owned subway line. How did they get the third token from the local traveler? We had a "bungalow" there in 1955 or 1956 (whichever summer the major hurricane threatened, so we had to leave ahead of schedule), and I remember the double fare. The back of the transfer explains it. *You 'buy' the transfer from the RR Clerk plus the two token to get into the system. *When you leave the system, you turn in the transfer and the clerk lets you out without using the turnstile. *You got your choice of either the cash fare or a token. Explain the logic? You can either spend three tokens (two to get in and one to get out) or two tokens plus the price of one token, plus having to deal with a piece of paper to get out? How does this benefit anyone -- TA, passenger (they weren't "customers" yet), or local bus company? |
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Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 24, 5:22 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote: Peter T. Daniels wrote: On Oct 24, 1:24 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote: Peter T. Daniels wrote: exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required two tokens. There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks). Here's a scan of the transfer:http://www.thejoekorner.com/transfers/rockline.gif The local passenger still paid the double fare. Paid three on entering and got one back on the exit. This was to protect the then private bus company from 'unfair' competition from the city owned subway line. How did they get the third token from the local traveler? We had a "bungalow" there in 1955 or 1956 (whichever summer the major hurricane threatened, so we had to leave ahead of schedule), and I remember the double fare. The back of the transfer explains it. You 'buy' the transfer from the RR Clerk plus the two token to get into the system. When you leave the system, you turn in the transfer and the clerk lets you out without using the turnstile. You got your choice of either the cash fare or a token. Explain the logic? You can either spend three tokens (two to get in and one to get out) or two tokens plus the price of one token, plus having to deal with a piece of paper to get out? How does this benefit anyone -- TA, passenger (they weren't "customers" yet), or local bus company? You miss the point, local riding by subway still cost two fares. The bus took longer to travel, at least between the end stations and Hammel's Wye. The thought was, if the subway charged the same fare, the bus company would lose riders. At the time the transfers I posted were sold, the fare was 20 cents. You paid 60 to get on and got back 20, net fare 40 cents. The bus charged 20 cents. -- ------------------------------------------------- | Joseph D. Korman | | | | Visit The JoeKorNer at | | http://www.thejoekorner.com | |-------------------------------------------------| | The light at the end of the tunnel ... | | may be a train going the other way! | | Brooklyn Tech Grads build things that work!('66)| |-------------------------------------------------| | All outgoing E-mail is scanned by NAV | ------------------------------------------------- |
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wrote in message ...
On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 16:38:38 +0100 "David A Stocks" wrote: They managed a flat fare in New York. You ever looked at the distance between Times Square and Far Rockaway? NY's flat fare only worked because geology and history combined to provide a system that doesn't have the lack of capacity in the central area that is experienced by London. If you can imagine London with most of the central zone lines sub-surface rather than deep tunnel, and express and local services on each route (especially the east-west routes), then you could start thinking about a flat fare. Having 2 or 3 large mainline hub termini in the middle rather than a load of smaller stations scattered around the edge would help as well. Sorry , I don't follow your reasoning. So because new york has more stations and lines in the central area it can charge a flat fare? That's because you haven't read my post. The *geology* kept the tracks and stations close to the surface. No deep platform tunnels. No escalators or lifts. At most local stations the only way to change tracks is via the street, sacrificing another token in the process. Eh? I know NYC has twice the number of stations than london (but the same route miles) but that means twice the maintenance costs all other things being equal The stations are dead cheap compared to London. In addition to the points above, most of them are entirely below ground and within the confines of the street above, so there is almost no commercial property space sacrificed at street level to make way for stations. Compare with the Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon works currently in progress and the plans for CrossRail, where lots of commercial property is being demolished to make way for stations. so if anything it should be a reason NOT to have a flat fare. And I thought it was you who was trying to justify a flat fare, not me .... The generous capacity provision in the NYC central area allows the flat fare to work without unacceptable overcrowding, and also encourages people to walk rather than taking short journeys. A large part of London's zonal fare system is aimed at throttling back demand for travel to/from/within zone 1. Once you've gone at all zonal you might as well go the whole the way. However, as Paul Corfield has pointed out, the MTA receives huge subsidies to run public transport in NYC. It would be interesting to speculate on where to put zone boundaries on the NYC subway system, and how the fare structure would work. D A Stocks |
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On Oct 24, 6:47*pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote: On Oct 24, 5:22 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote: Peter T. Daniels wrote: On Oct 24, 1:24 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote: Peter T. Daniels wrote: exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required two tokens. There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks). Here's a scan of the transfer:http://www.thejoekorner.com/transfers/rockline.gif The local passenger still paid the double fare. *Paid three on entering and got one back on the exit. *This was to protect the then private bus company from 'unfair' competition from the city owned subway line. How did they get the third token from the local traveler? We had a "bungalow" there in 1955 or 1956 (whichever summer the major hurricane threatened, so we had to leave ahead of schedule), and I remember the double fare. The back of the transfer explains it. *You 'buy' the transfer from the RR Clerk plus the two token to get into the system. *When you leave the system, you turn in the transfer and the clerk lets you out without using the turnstile. *You got your choice of either the cash fare or a token. Explain the logic? You can either spend three tokens (two to get in and one to get out) or two tokens plus the price of one token, plus having to deal with a piece of paper to get out? How does this benefit anyone -- TA, passenger (they weren't "customers" yet), or local bus company? You *miss the point, local riding by subway still cost two fares. *The bus took longer to travel, at least between the end stations and Hammel's Wye. *The thought was, if the subway charged the same fare, the bus company would lose riders. At the time the transfers I posted were sold, the fare was 20 cents. * You paid 60 to get on and got back 20, net fare 40 cents. *The bus charged 20 cents. Hunh? Someone hands you two dimes when you leave? What's the point of buying the transfer and selling it back, rather than just taking a transfer and handing it in when you exit, as they do in Seattle? In Seattle, riding downtown is free, so you pay when boarding outside downtown, or when exiting outside downtown -- and if you're passing through and coming out the other side, you get a "transfer" when you board and pay, and hand that in instead of paying when you exit. (Well, that's how it worked in 1984. The last time I was in Seattle, a few years ago, it didn't come up, but the bus was still free downtown.) |
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On Oct 24, 2:14*pm, "
wrote: Why were the Rockaways a double fare zone anyway? Was it because of distance or to pay the costs of taking over the line from the LIRR? I believe both. |
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