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Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Oct 30, 3:42*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"burkey" wrote in message ... From the Department for Transport Friday 30th October 2009 Rail passengers travelling between Watford and St Albans are in line for more regular and more frequent services thanks to exciting plans to create a new tram service, announced today by Transport Secretary Andrew Adonis and Hertfordshire County Council. This raises a lot of questions. Will the tram trains use the existing 25 kV OHLE, or will the line be re-electrified at 750 V DC? Will there be additional stations (Garston and How Wood are comparatively recent additions)? Will the tram trains be high floor or low floor? If the latter the existing stations will have to be altered. Are street-running extensions envisaged at either end? Peter Those were the questions that came to my mind. If the system extends in the street 25 kV would not be an option there. OTOH, IIRC Karlsruhe has dual voltage units. Re-electrifying the line would not be a cheap, or easy, option. |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Oct 30, 3:51*pm, E27002 wrote:
On Oct 30, 3:42*am, "Peter Masson" wrote: Will the tram trains use the existing 25 kV OHLE, or will the line be re-electrified at 750 V DC? Those were the questions that came to my mind. *If the system extends in the street 25 kV would not be an option there. OTOH, IIRC Karlsruhe has dual voltage units. There is no need to re-electrify for the sake of it ... tram-trains such as Siemens Avanto are already capable of 750 1500 3000 15000 25000 V operation of various systems and frequencies, and in dual voltage forms - 750/25000 V is actually the one in Siemens export blurb. I'd also suggest the cost of 750 V DC re-electrification could be as high as providing a mid point passing loop, then there'd be a need for full depot provision if single voltage DC. At least a 25 kV tram/train can still get to Willesden / Bletchley / Northampton / wherever. A novel solution would be to a two track covered car-shed that *is* the passing loop i.e. build loop under a shed. All trams work in day, spare if any can sit at Watford Jn in a sdg, at night they berth in the shed, passenger platform - I assume we are keeping high platforms - cab double as cleabers access. Now where did I get that idea from .... Volks perhaps :o) -- Nick |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Oct 30, 10:24*am, D7666 wrote:
On Oct 30, 3:51*pm, E27002 wrote: On Oct 30, 3:42*am, "Peter Masson" wrote: Will the tram trains use the existing 25 kV OHLE, or will the line be re-electrified at 750 V DC? Those were the questions that came to my mind. *If the system extends in the street 25 kV would not be an option there. OTOH, IIRC Karlsruhe has dual voltage units. There is no need to re-electrify for the sake of it ... tram-trains such as Siemens Avanto are already capable of 750 1500 3000 15000 25000 V operation of various systems and frequencies, and in dual voltage forms - 750/25000 V is actually the one in Siemens export blurb. I'd also suggest the cost of 750 V DC re-electrification could be as high as providing a mid point passing loop, then there'd be a need for full depot provision if single voltage DC. At least a 25 kV tram/train can still get to Willesden / Bletchley / Northampton / wherever. A novel solution would be to a two track covered car-shed that *is* the passing loop i.e. build loop under a shed. All trams work in day, spare if any can sit at Watford Jn in a sdg, at night they berth in the shed, passenger platform - I assume we are keeping high platforms - cab double as cleabers access. Now where did I get that idea from .... Volks perhaps :o) If this is not just electioneering, then this might be a good solution. Is there potentional to continue the route into the city/ town centre(s) at either or both ends? |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Oct 30, 6:00*pm, E27002 wrote:
If this is not just electioneering, then this might be a good solution. *Is there potentional to continue the route into the city/ town centre(s) at either or both ends?- Hide quoted text - St.Albans end yes easy, all would be needed is a contination then right turn, up the hill, into city centre. Steep climb though nothing beyond tram capability. Naturally uk.railway will demand it *must* run to St Albans City but I see no partcular need to do that if serving the town centre is better especially if Watford line gets enhanced service. Watford end would need to bridge or tunnel the WCML to reach to town centre. -- Nick |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
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Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On 30 Oct, 18:45, D7666 wrote:
On Oct 30, 6:00*pm, E27002 wrote: If this is not just electioneering, then this might be a good solution. *Is there potentional to continue the route into the city/ town centre(s) at either or both ends?- Hide quoted text - St.Albans end yes easy, all would be needed is a contination then right turn, up the hill, into city centre. Steep climb though nothing beyond tram capability. Tram/train appears to me to be about the rolling stock and not about the town-centre penetration, certainly in this case. There's no need in Watford, where WJ is at one end of Clarendon Road, the office district of the town centre, and the High Street loop on the DC line provides a service to the southern end of the town centre for the shops. As Burkey says elsewhere, the majority of pax head not to SA but to WJ, whether for the town or for onward connections to London. HCC's adoption of the Abbey line and the go-ahead for this scheme seem to me to be a quid pro quo for getting Croxley Rail Link money before the coffers close for good on regional transport allocations (i.e. just after the Tories get in and slash the budgets). Adonis and DafT obtain proof of concept on a pet scheme and HCC's CRL scheme, which has been around for longer than me, goes to the top of the pile for what's left. Simples. THC |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
wrote in message ... In article , (E27002) wrote: On Oct 30, 3:42 am, "Peter Masson" wrote: "burkey" wrote in message ... From the Department for Transport Friday 30th October 2009 Rail passengers travelling between Watford and St Albans are in line for more regular and more frequent services thanks to exciting plans to create a new tram service, announced today by Transport Secretary Andrew Adonis and Hertfordshire County Council. This raises a lot of questions. Will the tram trains use the existing 25 kV OHLE, or will the line be re-electrified at 750 V DC? Will there be additional stations (Garston and How Wood are comparatively recent additions)? Will the tram trains be high floor or low floor? If the latter the existing stations will have to be altered. Are street-running extensions envisaged at either end? Those were the questions that came to my mind. If the system extends in the street 25 kV would not be an option there. OTOH, IIRC Karlsruhe has dual voltage units. Re-electrifying the line would not be a cheap, or easy, option. Don't they need at the very least a new passing loop to allow the increased frequency? I'm not sure, if so, why they need to convert to tram-train. It's not as if any street running is proposed, is it? -- Colin Rosenstiel The current run-time is 16mins, according to earlier posts this thread. Turnaround times are subject to standards for railway operation. 1) Use of what are effectively Light Rail vehicles (in the manner of Tyne & Wear Metro and DLR) allows other (ie non-railway, eg tramway) turnaround parameters to apply; 2) While it has been commented that the Class 350 have tram-like acceleration - the question is: at what cost? Vehicle depreciation and electricity consumption in particular. 3) If the line is operated as "one-engine-in-steam" with no operational access to the main line (means manually locking points at Watford Jn [WFJ], I suppose), then Light Rail standards for end loadings and vehicle strength can apply. This means the desired acceleration can be achieved with lighter vehicles and lower power bills - has some "green" credentials to boot!!~~! 4) If the start-to-start turnaround including recovery can be got under 15 mins, then a half-hourly schedule can be maintained. 5) The smart money would be to liase with the other high-platform LR operators in the UK and buy in a multivoltage version of whatever they are buying; possible share the engineering spare. 6) LU and NR DC supplies will be available at WFJ with the Metropolitan line extension and possible Bakerloo re-instatement. I suspect that repowering the OHLE with the available DC could work, even with significant voltage drop so long as the single unit in use can work with voltages from 500 to 800 or so. 7) extensions would of course be on County Councillors' minds, subject as always to business case and expenditure priorities. DW down under |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:45:46 +0800, DW downunder wrote:
The current run-time is 16mins, according to earlier posts this thread. Turnaround times are subject to standards for railway operation. 1) Use of what are effectively Light Rail vehicles (in the manner of Tyne & Wear Metro and DLR) allows other (ie non-railway, eg tramway) turnaround parameters to apply; 2) While it has been commented that the Class 350 have tram-like acceleration - the question is: at what cost? Vehicle depreciation and electricity consumption in particular. So use an old 313 or whatever, rather than ignoring the costs of a new one-off bespoke vehicle with its own maintenance requirements. The saving in electricity will only ever apply to a single vehicle, so it will be unlikely to be large enough offset the capital and administrative costs of the change. 3) If the line is operated as "one-engine-in-steam" with no operational access to the main line (means manually locking points at Watford Jn [WFJ], I suppose), then Light Rail standards for end loadings and vehicle strength can apply. This means the desired acceleration can be achieved with lighter vehicles and lower power bills - has some "green" credentials to boot!!~~! And precludes the single best improvement that could happen to the line (through-running to London). 4) If the start-to-start turnaround including recovery can be got under 15 mins, then a half-hourly schedule can be maintained. With little hope of recovering from any delay. Not helpful for mainline connections. 7) extensions would of course be on County Councillors' minds, subject as always to business case and expenditure priorities. IMO the whole idea is completely pointless without street-running extensions. |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:38:57 -0700 (PDT), THC
wrote: HCC's adoption of the Abbey line and the go-ahead for this scheme seem to me to be a quid pro quo for getting Croxley Rail Link money before the coffers close for good on regional transport allocations (i.e. just after the Tories get in and slash the budgets). Adonis and DafT obtain proof of concept on a pet scheme and HCC's CRL scheme, which has been around for longer than me, goes to the top of the pile for what's left. Sounds good if it works, but is there any evidence of an imminent go-ahead for the Croxley Rail Link? Of course there is nothing to stop the Tories cancelling or delaying it if they are elected with a working majority. |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
"asdf" wrote in message ... On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:45:46 +0800, DW downunder wrote: The current run-time is 16mins, according to earlier posts this thread. Turnaround times are subject to standards for railway operation. 1) Use of what are effectively Light Rail vehicles (in the manner of Tyne & Wear Metro and DLR) allows other (ie non-railway, eg tramway) turnaround parameters to apply; 2) While it has been commented that the Class 350 have tram-like acceleration - the question is: at what cost? Vehicle depreciation and electricity consumption in particular. So use an old 313 or whatever, rather than ignoring the costs of a new one-off bespoke vehicle with its own maintenance requirements. The saving in electricity will only ever apply to a single vehicle, so it will be unlikely to be large enough offset the capital and administrative costs of the change. The point I was making was that while a 350 might have the acceleration required, it's a high depreciation cost unit - also happens to use a lot of juice to achieve its performance parameters. Rolling stock shortages bedevil peak operations throughout Britain. Tying up a 4-car 350/1 dual voltage unit, or 350/2 AC unit on an hourly branch line duty when 24 minutes each hour during autumn timetable (28 in other seasons) are spent idle does not strike me as an efficient means of utilising resources. If the timetable is maintained at hourly, indeed reversion to 313 or use of AC only variants (these were IIRC 314, 315, 316 but not sure of their fate) would not go astray. Another option, worthwile only if interfacing 10 or 20 minute interval connections, would be to change to a 40-minute interval service, clock face even/odd hours. 3) If the line is operated as "one-engine-in-steam" with no operational access to the main line (means manually locking points at Watford Jn [WFJ], I suppose), then Light Rail standards for end loadings and vehicle strength can apply. This means the desired acceleration can be achieved with lighter vehicles and lower power bills - has some "green" credentials to boot!!~~! And precludes the single best improvement that could happen to the line (through-running to London). If that was a winner, do you think the present plan would have surfaced? I have a gut feeling that if a local campaign for through running was activated and gained traction (as they say), the likely outcome would be a service through to either or both Stratford and Clapham Junction - not Euston. Comments on the loadings on the WLL might indeed support the latter. 4) If the start-to-start turnaround including recovery can be got under 15 mins, then a half-hourly schedule can be maintained. With little hope of recovering from any delay. Not helpful for mainline connections. Sorry asdf, but did you not notice that I wrote: If the start-to-start turnaround including recovery can be got under 15 mins, .... 7) extensions would of course be on County Councillors' minds, subject as always to business case and expenditure priorities. IMO the whole idea is completely pointless without street-running extensions. And such extensions would be on the agenda no doubt .... as funds can be allocated. I guess the primary issue needed to be addressed is this: could an increase in service frequency increase net revenue sufficiently to recoup the costs of installing an intermediate loop? Alternatively, could the benefit of through services at non-clockface intervals (or 40-minute intervals) increase net revenue sufficiently to recoup the cost of signalling the connections at Watford Junction [WFJ] for passenger operations? It would appear both of these have been subject to BCR calculation and have not achieved the hurdle rate required. It does seem to me that providing rollingstock for a shuttle operation that is technically deemed "not a railway" for turnaround performance requirements may prove a little tricky. Essentially either 1 unit with at least capacity equivalent to 2 x 20m cars would be needed running every 15 mins, or 2 units with capacity equivalent of 1 x 20m car needed. If the latter, then 2-unit operations could occur during busy traffic periods, and single unit operation at other times. On top of these, traffic and engineering spares would be needed - or we'll see Sunday sevice bustituted so that the one unit can be serviced. Like you, I have doubts about the administrative and ongoing costs associated with an isolated, small operation - unless somehow they can tap into other fleets and operators of compatible rolling stock. DW downunder |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
And precludes the single best improvement that could happen to the line (through-running to London). If that was a winner, do you think the present plan would have surfaced? I have a gut feeling that if a local campaign for through running was activated and gained traction (as they say), the likely outcome would be a service through to either or both Stratford and Clapham Junction - not Euston. Comments on the loadings on the WLL might indeed support the latter. There has been a campaign to run the Abbey Flyer into Euston in the past, but it always ran into the problem that Virgin needed the train paths, whereas St Albans already has a direct route into London (albeit very overloaded) IMO the whole idea is completely pointless without street-running extensions. And such extensions would be on the agenda no doubt *.... *as funds can be allocated. I like the idea of street extensions, but hard to see where these would go. If you turn right up the steep Hollywell Hill you could provide a very useful Park and Ride service to the Town Centre. However I think the overhead cables would drive the Civic Socity into a frenzy. You could go straight on across the park with a stop at Verulanium Museum then run up to Bluehouse Hill and then up to Town via Folly Lane - and incur the wrath of Friends of Verulanium Park You could reverse at St Albans Abbey, then take a steep turn up onto Cotton Mill Lane run up as far as London Road then either a left into town or a right to City Station. These roads get heavily congested during school run time, traffic that a tram from Watford probably wont clear. You could run back along the old railway line to Hatfield. This has been looked at before but dropped as the route has become a well used cycle path. I would have thought there is no chance of any of this in current funding climate. However some additional stops on the existing line might be useful - one serving Abbots Avenue in St Albans, Asda in Garson and the Trident Centre in Watford spring to mind Rob Smith |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 05:01:01 -0800 (PST), Rob
wrote: There has been a campaign to run the Abbey Flyer into Euston in the past, but it always ran into the problem that Virgin needed the train paths, whereas St Albans already has a direct route into London (albeit very overloaded) Very overcrowded now, perhaps, but the Thameslink route is the subject of a hugely ambitious and expensive upgrade which will provide a very large increase in capacity. big snip However some additional stops on the existing line might be useful - one serving Abbots Avenue in St Albans, Asda in Garson and the Trident Centre in Watford spring to mind An excellent idea. There has been a lot of development in recent years and the present line completely fails to serve it. |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
I would have thought there is no chance of any of this in current funding climate. However some additional stops on the existing line might be useful - one serving Abbots Avenue in St Albans, Asda in Garson and the Trident Centre in Watford spring to mind The BRE at Garston as well! |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 05:01:01 -0800 (PST), Rob
wrote: There has been a campaign to run the Abbey Flyer into Euston in the past, but it always ran into the problem that Virgin needed the train paths, whereas St Albans already has a direct route into London (albeit very overloaded) There has to be room on the slow lines, as LM are increasing the service in December with some Watford shuttles that could easily run through from St Albans if the infrastructure was sorted. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 3, 1:07*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 05:01:01 -0800 (PST), Rob wrote: There has been a campaign to run the Abbey Flyer into Euston in the past, but it always ran into the problem that Virgin needed the train paths, whereas St Albans already has a direct route into London (albeit very overloaded) There has to be room on the slow lines, as LM are increasing the service in December with some Watford shuttles that could easily run through from St Albans if the infrastructure was sorted. Where will this tram be maintained? How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. My best guess is that these issues have been considered. |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
E27002 wrote:
Where will this tram be maintained? How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. My best guess is that these issues have been considered. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...announced.html says "Network Rail land for a depot has been identified at St Albans Abbey." -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:29:49 -0800, E27002 wrote:
Where will this tram be maintained? How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. My best guess is that these issues have been considered. Siemens has already built a batch of 'Avanto' 'tram-trains' that are equipped for 25kAC/750vDC operation and are even fitted with appropriate train protection equipment for the area they operate in. All you need to do is borrow one Avanto from RAPT (Paris T4) for a while to try out. |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 4, 9:15*am, Matthew Geier
wrote: On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:29:49 -0800, E27002 wrote: Where will this tram be maintained? *How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. My best guess is that these issues have been considered. *Siemens has already built a batch of 'Avanto' 'tram-trains' that are equipped for 25kAC/750vDC operation and are even fitted with appropriate train protection equipment for the area they operate in. *All you need to do is borrow one Avanto from RAPT (Paris T4) for a while to try out. Perhaps they could re-import ex-DLR cars that were exported 2nd hand to Essen (but were imported new anyway. The 11 P86 sets would be about the right fleet size x5 2-set trains and one spare unit :o) Even have grandfather rights ? Not that I am aware Essen are selling them . -- Nick |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 4, 9:15*am, Matthew Geier
wrote: *Siemens has already built a batch of 'Avanto' 'tram-trains' that are equipped for 25kAC/750vDC operation and are even fitted with appropriate train protection equipment for the area they operate in. I've already posted Avantos exist way back upthread. It is about the 42nd time I've mentioned Avanto in various thread in this forum over recent years, yet every new thread about tram/trains trots out the same uninformed drivel about perceived 25 kV / 750 V trams not exisitng, need to re-wire 25 kV to 750 V etc, when they do exist and are well proven. There are even electro-diesel options although not sure if any of those have actually been built yet. -- Nick |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On 4 Nov, 09:15, Matthew Geier
wrote: *All you need to do is borrow one Avanto from RAPT (Paris T4) for a while to try out. High floor? (Or is there room near the existing stations for a temporary low-floor platform?) Neil |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 4, 1:31*am, D7666 wrote:
On Nov 4, 9:15*am, Matthew Geier wrote: On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:29:49 -0800, E27002 wrote: Where will this tram be maintained? *How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. My best guess is that these issues have been considered. *Siemens has already built a batch of 'Avanto' 'tram-trains' that are equipped for 25kAC/750vDC operation and are even fitted with appropriate train protection equipment for the area they operate in. *All you need to do is borrow one Avanto from RAPT (Paris T4) for a while to try out. Perhaps they could re-import ex-DLR cars that were exported 2nd hand to Essen (but were imported new anyway. The 11 P86 sets would be about the right fleet size x5 2-set trains and one spare unit :o) Even have grandfather rights ? Not that I am aware Essen are selling them . Correct me if I am wrong: The DLR cars are DC only. The issue here is the need to function under the 25 kV AC wire. Also, are they still third rail only? Or, did Essen add a DC pantograph? |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
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Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 6, 10:02*am, David Jackman pleasereplytogroup wrote:
E27002 wrote in news:5a91ccd3-e16a-4f8e-b721- : On Nov 3, 1:07*pm, (Neil Williams) wrote: On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 05:01:01 -0800 (PST), Rob wrote: There has been a campaign to run the Abbey Flyer into Euston in the past, but it always ran into the problem that Virgin needed the train paths, whereas St Albans already has a direct route into London (albeit very overloaded) There has to be room on the slow lines, as LM are increasing the service in December with some Watford shuttles that could easily run through from St Albans if the infrastructure was sorted. Where will this tram be maintained? *How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. My best guess is that these issues have been considered. Why on earth would you want to get Network Rail involved? Isn't one of the attractions of this that you are isolated from the "big railway" and won't need to comply with (or have rolling stock that complies with) Group Statdards? Indeed. However, when I posted the foregoing, I was not aware that the route was to have its own tram depot. |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 4, 4:04*pm, E27002 wrote:
On Nov 4, 1:31*am, D7666 wrote: Perhaps they could re-import ex-DLR cars that were exported 2nd hand to Essen (but were imported new anyway. The 11 P86 sets would be about the right fleet size x5 2-set trains and one spare unit :o) Correct me if I am wrong: The DLR cars are DC only. *The issue here is the need to function under the 25 kV AC wire. *Also, are they still third rail only? *Or, did Essen add a DC pantograph?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Did the :o) in my msg pass you by ? -- Nick |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 6, 11:22*am, D7666 wrote:
On Nov 4, 4:04*pm, E27002 wrote: On Nov 4, 1:31*am, D7666 wrote: Perhaps they could re-import ex-DLR cars that were exported 2nd hand to Essen (but were imported new anyway. The 11 P86 sets would be about the right fleet size x5 2-set trains and one spare unit :o) Correct me if I am wrong: The DLR cars are DC only. *The issue here is the need to function under the 25 kV AC wire. *Also, are they still third rail only? *Or, did Essen add a DC pantograph?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Did the :o) in my msg pass you by ? Duh! |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 3, 11:29*pm, E27002 wrote:
On Nov 3, 1:07*pm, (Neil Williams) wrote: On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 05:01:01 -0800 (PST), Rob wrote: There has been a campaign to run the Abbey Flyer into Euston in the past, but it always ran into the problem that Virgin needed the train paths, whereas St Albans already has a direct route into London (albeit very overloaded) There has to be room on the slow lines, as LM are increasing the service in December with some Watford shuttles that could easily run through from St Albans if the infrastructure was sorted. Where will this tram be maintained? *How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. My best guess is that these issues have been considered. Where will this tram be maintained? How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. Are you mad? No they'd load it on to an Alley's low loader every night for the move to Bletchley depot. Come one now man, get a grip of yourself. We can't have rolling stock being moved from location to another by rail!! Its just not British! |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 4, 5:04*pm, E27002 wrote:
On Nov 4, 1:31*am, D7666 wrote: On Nov 4, 9:15*am, Matthew Geier wrote: On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:29:49 -0800, E27002 wrote: Where will this tram be maintained? *How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. My best guess is that these issues have been considered. *Siemens has already built a batch of 'Avanto' 'tram-trains' that are equipped for 25kAC/750vDC operation and are even fitted with appropriate train protection equipment for the area they operate in. *All you need to do is borrow one Avanto from RAPT (Paris T4) for a while to try out. Perhaps they could re-import ex-DLR cars that were exported 2nd hand to Essen (but were imported new anyway. The 11 P86 sets would be about the right fleet size x5 2-set trains and one spare unit :o) Even have grandfather rights ? Not that I am aware Essen are selling them . Correct me if I am wrong: The DLR cars are DC only. *The issue here is the need to function under the 25 kV AC wire. *Also, are they still third rail only? *Or, did Essen add a DC pantograph?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As they did for the DLR Metrolink demonstator in Gorton some years ago. Unit 11 if my memory serves me right. That was exciting. i wonder, did they stable or load/unload the unir at Reddish depot that time? |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
"D7666" wrote in message ... On Nov 4, 9:15 am, Matthew Geier wrote: Siemens has already built a batch of 'Avanto' 'tram-trains' that are equipped for 25kAC/750vDC operation and are even fitted with appropriate train protection equipment for the area they operate in. I've already posted Avantos exist way back upthread. It is about the 42nd time I've mentioned Avanto in various thread in this forum over recent years, yet every new thread about tram/trains trots out the same uninformed drivel about perceived 25 kV / 750 V trams not exisitng, need to re-wire 25 kV to 750 V etc, when they do exist and are well proven. There are even electro-diesel options although not sure if any of those have actually been built yet. -- Nick And for that matter, battery equipped units to get past environmentally sensitive areas - even trolley buses doing that with batteries (see Peking, Wellington for examples). DW down under |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 21:50:23 -0800 (PST), Paul
wrote: On Nov 3, 11:29=A0pm, E27002 wrote: On Nov 3, 1:07=A0pm, (Neil Williams) wrote: On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 05:01:01 -0800 (PST), Rob rob_s_sm...@hotmail= .com wrote: There has been a campaign to run the Abbey Flyer into Euston in the past, but it always ran into the problem that Virgin needed the train paths, whereas St Albans already has a direct route into London (albeit very overloaded) There has to be room on the slow lines, as LM are increasing the service in December with some Watford shuttles that could easily run through from St Albans if the infrastructure was sorted. Where will this tram be maintained? =A0How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. My best guess is that these issues have been considered. Where will this tram be maintained? How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. Are you mad? No they'd load it on to an Alley's low loader every night for the move to Bletchley depot. Come one now man, get a grip of yourself. We can't have rolling stock being moved from location to another by rail!! Its just not British! You missed an earler post which said that room for a depot had been identified at st Albans. However the official answer now is that this is up to the contractor to sort out. I would have throught that Watford or the former North Watford sidings, had beter potential depot space. -- Peter Lawrence |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009, Peter Lawrence wrote:
On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 21:50:23 -0800 (PST), Paul wrote: On Nov 3, 11:29=A0pm, E27002 wrote: On Nov 3, 1:07=A0pm, (Neil Williams) wrote: On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 05:01:01 -0800 (PST), Rob rob_s_sm...@hotmail= .com wrote: There has been a campaign to run the Abbey Flyer into Euston in the past, but it always ran into the problem that Virgin needed the train paths, whereas St Albans already has a direct route into London (albeit very overloaded) There has to be room on the slow lines, as LM are increasing the service in December with some Watford shuttles that could easily run through from St Albans if the infrastructure was sorted. Where will this tram be maintained? =A0How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. My best guess is that these issues have been considered. Where will this tram be maintained? How will it reach that location? If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by another motive power unit. Are you mad? No they'd load it on to an Alley's low loader every night for the move to Bletchley depot. Come one now man, get a grip of yourself. We can't have rolling stock being moved from location to another by rail!! Its just not British! You missed an earler post which said that room for a depot had been identified at st Albans. However the official answer now is that this is up to the contractor to sort out. I would have throught that Watford or the former North Watford sidings, had beter potential depot space. Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just for this one tram? Or when we say 'depot', do we mean 'somewhere to sleep at night plus somewhere for light maintenance eg changing the light bulbs', with heavy work being done at an existing major depot reached by rail or low-loader? tom -- Kevin was inspired as an actor by Super Engineer A.K.A Wondergirl T-rav Camelang -- Wikipedia, on Kevin Bacon |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 7, 11:14*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just for this one tram? One ? You've obviousy not been following this very well have you. -- Nick |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009, D7666 wrote:
On Nov 7, 11:14*pm, Tom Anderson wrote: Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just for this one tram? One ? You've obviousy not been following this very well have you. No, not in the slightest! So, does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just for this small number of trams? tom -- We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, and a whole galaxy of multi colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers... and also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls. Not that we needed all this for the trip, but once you get locked in a serious drug collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can. -- Hunter S. Thompson, 'Fear and loathing in Las Vegas' |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
Tom Anderson wrote:
Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just for this one tram? Given that a passing loop is apparently one of the main reasons for the project, I suspect there may be more than one tram :) -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 8, 10:10*am, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just for this one tram? Given that a passing loop is apparently one of the main reasons for the project, I suspect there may be more than one tram :) ;o) I restate my suggestion the depot *is* the passing loop in a shed. Less pointwork needed. If VER can do it, so can the Hertfordshire Interurban Electric Tramcar Company. -- Nick |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
"Tom Anderson" wrote Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just for this one tram? Or when we say 'depot', do we mean 'somewhere to sleep at night plus somewhere for light maintenance eg changing the light bulbs', with heavy work being done at an existing major depot reached by rail or low-loader? We have the precedent of the Stourbridge PPMs, which have their own little shed at the Junction. For that matter, Waterloo (W&C) manages all the maintenance for the W&C trains, except when, after around 15 years, they had to be craned out and taken away for overhaul. And Ryde shed copes with maintaining the 70-year-old Island Line stock. Peter |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009, D7666 wrote:
On Nov 8, 10:10*am, Arthur Figgis wrote: Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just for this one tram? Given that a passing loop is apparently one of the main reasons for the project, I suspect there may be more than one tram :) ;o) I restate my suggestion the depot *is* the passing loop in a shed. Less pointwork needed. If VER can do it, so can the Hertfordshire Interurban Electric Tramcar Company. Could it also be one of the stations? tom -- KEEP CALM and CARRY ON |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 8, 5:04*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009, D7666 wrote: On Nov 8, 10:10*am, Arthur Figgis wrote: Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just for this one tram? Given that a passing loop is apparently one of the main reasons for the project, I suspect there may be more than one tram :) ;o) I restate my suggestion the depot *is* the passing loop in a shed. Less pointwork needed. If VER can do it, so can the Hertfordshire Interurban Electric Tramcar Company. Could it also be one of the stations? tom -- KEEP CALM and CARRY ON Could it also be one of the stations? toWould save on the cost of a bus shelter at least! What has it come to when such penny pinching measures are required? |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009, Peter Masson wrote:
"Tom Anderson" wrote Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just for this one tram? Or when we say 'depot', do we mean 'somewhere to sleep at night plus somewhere for light maintenance eg changing the light bulbs', with heavy work being done at an existing major depot reached by rail or low-loader? We have the precedent of the Stourbridge PPMs, which have their own little shed at the Junction. For that matter, Waterloo (W&C) manages all the maintenance for the W&C trains, except when, after around 15 years, they had to be craned out and taken away for overhaul. And Ryde shed copes with maintaining the 70-year-old Island Line stock. Waterloo and Ryde lack rail connections - or easy low-loader access - to the rest of the network, so there, sending trains away for regular work would be exorbitantly expensive, hence having their own little heavy workshops makes sense. I'm afraid i'm not familiar with Stourbridge, its trains, or its acronyms. Although on googling, i find this is one of those clever Parry People Mover things. My questions there are (a) is all maintenance handled at the local depot, or do they ever go elsewhere, (b) are the vehicles so different to normal trains that there would be no cost saving in co-locating their workshop with a normal train depot and (c) is this at all an artifact of this being a bit of an experimental pilot scheme? tom -- KEEP CALM and CARRY ON |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Nov 8, 4:04*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
Given that a passing loop is apparently one of the main reasons for the project, I suspect there may be more than one tram :) I restate my suggestion the depot *is* the passing loop in a shed. Less pointwork needed. If VER can do it, so can the Hertfordshire Interurban Electric Tramcar Company. Could it also be one of the stations? I did in fact suggest that upthread. -- Nick |
Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009, D7666 wrote:
On Nov 8, 4:04*pm, Tom Anderson wrote: Given that a passing loop is apparently one of the main reasons for the project, I suspect there may be more than one tram :) I restate my suggestion the depot *is* the passing loop in a shed. Less pointwork needed. If VER can do it, so can the Hertfordshire Interurban Electric Tramcar Company. Could it also be one of the stations? I did in fact suggest that upthread. Your ideas are intriguing to me and i wish to subscribe to your RSS feed. tom -- Glass of water, glass of orange juice, cup of coffee, a spell on the toilet (Guinness hangovers only), back to bed for a good cry. Fried breakfast later. -- susumu, on curing hangovers |
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