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Oxford Circus crossing
As a Balham resident, I'm still reeling that allegedly £1m was spent on this
crossing when we have had one outside Balham station for over four years! It is said to have cost £100k to create. The media has totally ignored the fact, despite e-mails and calls, with the exception of a tiny piece in Metro and a short letter in tonight's Standard. Seems they are scared of upsetting the Mayor. Some (balanced) views he http://www.localgov.co.uk/index.cfm?...etail&id=83381 Ian -- |
Oxford Circus crossing
Ian F. wrote:
As a Balham resident, I'm still reeling that allegedly £1m was spent on this crossing when we have had one outside Balham station for over four years! It is said to have cost £100k to create. The money was presumably spent on demolishing walls and moving kerb lines, lighting poles and camera poles, rather than on redoing the road surface. The media has totally ignored the fact, despite e-mails and calls, with the exception of a tiny piece in Metro and a short letter in tonight's Standard. Seems they are scared of upsetting the Mayor. I don't think Boris has been Mayor long enough to be responsible for the scheme, BICBW. Some (balanced) views he http://www.localgov.co.uk/index.cfm?...etail&id=83381 There's been one in Burnt Oak since approximately 2001, which might be the oldest one in London. Here's a 2004 discussion... http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....eef9d821b556c8 |
Oxford Circus crossing
On 3 Nov, 20:47, "Ian F." wrote:
As a Balham resident, I'm still reeling that allegedly £1m was spent on this crossing when we have had one outside Balham station for over four years! It is said to have cost £100k to create. The media has totally ignored the fact, despite e-mails and calls, with the exception of a tiny piece in Metro and a short letter in tonight's Standard. Seems they are scared of upsetting the Mayor. There is no need to have a cow. The Balham crossing is probably as scary and useless as the Oxford Circus one. They are both just cosmetic. The diagonal crossings are dangerous and totally unnecessary. |
Oxford Circus crossing
"Offramp" wrote in message
... On 3 Nov, 20:47, "Ian F." wrote: As a Balham resident, I'm still reeling that allegedly £1m was spent on this crossing when we have had one outside Balham station for over four years! It is said to have cost £100k to create. The media has totally ignored the fact, despite e-mails and calls, with the exception of a tiny piece in Metro and a short letter in tonight's Standard. Seems they are scared of upsetting the Mayor. There is no need to have a cow. The Balham crossing is probably as scary and useless as the Oxford Circus one. They are both just cosmetic. The diagonal crossings are dangerous and totally unnecessary. =============== Well I went to try it out this evening and found the whole thing shut down, fences all round the crossing, and Oxo Station shut; all for someone to turn on a few lightbulbs. Bah, humbug. MaxB |
Oxford Circus crossing
On 3 Nov, 22:35, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:32:47 -0800 (PST), Offramp wrote: The diagonal crossings are dangerous and totally unnecessary. Why? [genuine question btw] -- Paul C I can't see why either. There would be three clear phases. I couldn't make any sense of the old phasing at Oxford Circus (and never will now), but I generally just crossed when there seemed to be a gap, because I couldn't work out what was going on. |
Oxford Circus crossing
"Ian F." wrote in
: As a Balham resident, I'm still reeling that allegedly £1m was spent on this crossing when we have had one outside Balham station for over four years! It is said to have cost £100k to create. The media has totally ignored the fact, despite e-mails and calls, with the exception of a tiny piece in Metro and a short letter in tonight's Standard. Seems they are scared of upsetting the Mayor. Some (balanced) views he http://www.localgov.co.uk/index.cfm?...etail&id=83381 Ian The BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8337341.stm) are quoting £5 million, as does the localgov link. I've no idea how you would go about spending £5 million on removing some railings and installing coloured paving - that can't sound like value for money to anybody, even the contractor who installed it! Also I do hope it doesn't cost £5 million to remove because, having seen it for the first time last week, it doesn't look safe to me (it is too easy for pedestrians to get too close to the buses, even if they are only going at walking pace, and remember this is currently a junction where bendi- buses turn). David |
Oxford Circus crossing
On 2009-11-03, Offramp wrote:
On 3 Nov, 20:47, "Ian F." wrote: As a Balham resident, I'm still reeling that allegedly £1m was spent on this crossing when we have had one outside Balham station for over four years! It is said to have cost £100k to create. The media has totally ignored the fact, despite e-mails and calls, with the exception of a tiny piece in Metro and a short letter in tonight's Standard. Seems they are scared of upsetting the Mayor. There is no need to have a cow. The Balham crossing is probably as scary and useless as the Oxford Circus one. They are both just cosmetic. The diagonal crossings are dangerous and totally unnecessary. I can remember when I was about 12 and diagonal crossings were introduced at a couple of city-centre intersections. They were called "scramble" crossings, and I think they are still there - 48 years later! There are actually quite a lot scattered around the world. The idea is that they are good for places with high pedestrian traffic. (The city in question was Brisbane, in Australia). E. |
Oxford Circus crossing
David Jackman pleasereplytogroup wrote on 03 November 2009 23:09:39 ...
having seen it for the first time last week, it doesn't look safe to me (it is too easy for pedestrians to get too close to the buses, even if they are only going at walking pace, and remember this is currently a junction where bendi-buses turn). Given that we don't have kerb-edge doors to protect passengers on the streets of London, how is that different from any other light-controlled crossing in London? Since all the traffic now stops for the pedestrian phase, it should be safer than before. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Oxford Circus crossing
Richard J. wrote:
David Jackman pleasereplytogroup wrote on 03 November 2009 23:09:39 ... having seen it for the first time last week, it doesn't look safe to me (it is too easy for pedestrians to get too close to the buses, even if they are only going at walking pace, and remember this is currently a junction where bendi-buses turn). Given that we don't have kerb-edge doors to protect passengers on the streets of London, how is that different from any other light-controlled crossing in London? Since all the traffic now stops for the pedestrian phase, it should be safer than before. In the Oxford Street area, pedestrians do not accept the idea that some phases are not for them. |
Oxford Circus crossing
"Ian F." wrote in
: As a Balham resident, I'm still reeling that allegedly £1m was spent on this crossing when we have had one outside Balham station for over four years! It is said to have cost £100k to create. I'm old enough to remember when pedestrian phases at traffic lights were first introduced in Edinburgh, where I then lived. The first one was at the intersection of the Bridges and the High Street, and instead of red and green men there was a white-on-black 'CROSS NOW' light (and merely the absence of it to indicate that you shouldn't). That one and all subsequent ones for some time gave the pedestrians a dedicated phase, where they could cross diagonally if they wished - though without the natty stripes on the road. Some considerable time later, they started introducing ones where you couldn't cross diagonally and there was a bit of publicity (and grumbling) about the fact that you could not rely on being able to cross in any direction. I don't recall anyone being squashed, but there was less traffic about in those days. To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings have the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of the road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. I suppose we'll get used to it, but I've already seen people: - look across the road, see no light and assume that there isn't a pedestrian phase, especially where there are others waiting and obscuring the new-style light, and - even more worryingly, look across the road (say south to north) and see the green man for the pedestrians crossing east to west, which is aimed directly south, and plunge across the road into the traffic. The second occurrence was after dark, on a road that went uphill south to north, so the green light was at about the right height for an old-style one. Peter -- | Peter Campbell Smith | Epsom | UK | |
Oxford Circus crossing
On 4 Nov, 12:18, Peter Campbell Smith wrote:
"Ian F." wrote : As a Balham resident, I'm still reeling that allegedly £1m was spent on this crossing when we have had one outside Balham station for over four years! It is said to have cost £100k to create. I'm old enough to remember when pedestrian phases at traffic lights were first introduced in Edinburgh, where I then lived. The first one was at the intersection of the Bridges and the High Street, and instead of red and green men there was a white-on-black 'CROSS NOW' light (and merely the absence of it to indicate that you shouldn't). That one and all subsequent ones for some time gave the pedestrians a dedicated phase, where they could cross diagonally if they wished - though without the natty stripes on the road. Some considerable time later, they started introducing ones where you couldn't cross diagonally and there was a bit of publicity (and grumbling) about the fact that you could not rely on being able to cross in any direction. *I don't recall anyone being squashed, but there was less traffic about in those days. To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings have the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of the road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. *I suppose we'll get used to it, but I've already seen people: - look across the road, see no light and assume that there isn't a pedestrian phase, especially where there are others waiting and obscuring the new-style light, and - even more worryingly, look across the road (say south to north) and see the green man for the pedestrians crossing east to west, which is aimed directly south, and plunge across the road into the traffic. The second occurrence was after dark, on a road that went uphill south to north, so the green light was at about the right height for an old-style one. Peter Unless it's changed recently, the junction of Poultry/Cheapside and King Street/Queen Street is rather special. As well as the various vehicle and pedestrian phases, there's rather long period every phase when all the traffic lights and all the pedestrian lights are red, ie nothing and no one can move. I've never understood the reason for that. |
Oxford Circus crossing
In message , at 12:18:22 on Wed,
4 Nov 2009, Peter Campbell Smith remarked: To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings have the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of the road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. I suppose we'll get used to it, but I've already seen people: - look across the road, see no light and assume that there isn't a pedestrian phase, especially where there are others waiting and obscuring the new-style light, and - even more worryingly, look across the road (say south to north) and see the green man for the pedestrians crossing east to west, which is aimed directly south, and plunge across the road into the traffic. These new crossings are a complete disaster, and should be banned immediately. If for no other reason than the red/green men are obscured as soon as there is more than a couple of people waiting to cross. -- Roland Perry |
Oxford Circus crossing
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
... In message , at 12:18:22 on Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Peter Campbell Smith remarked: To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings have the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of the road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. I suppose we'll get used to it, but I've already seen people: - look across the road, see no light and assume that there isn't a pedestrian phase, especially where there are others waiting and obscuring the new-style light, and - even more worryingly, look across the road (say south to north) and see the green man for the pedestrians crossing east to west, which is aimed directly south, and plunge across the road into the traffic. These new crossings are a complete disaster, and should be banned immediately. If for no other reason than the red/green men are obscured as soon as there is more than a couple of people waiting to cross. -- Roland Perry Hear, hear. They are totally stupid. MaxB |
Oxford Circus crossing
On 4 Nov, 13:50, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:18:22 on Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Peter Campbell Smith remarked: To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings have the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of the road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. *I suppose we'll get used to it, but I've already seen people: - look across the road, see no light and assume that there isn't a pedestrian phase, especially where there are others waiting and obscuring the new-style light, and - even more worryingly, look across the road (say south to north) and see the green man for the pedestrians crossing east to west, which is aimed directly south, and plunge across the road into the traffic. These new crossings are a complete disaster, and should be banned immediately. If for no other reason than the red/green men are obscured as soon as there is more than a couple of people waiting to cross. -- Roland Perry Oh god yes, it won't be a moment too soon when they are banned. They seem to be universally despised, for good reason. Another problem with many of them is that they are set a long way back into the pavement and can't be seen at all from the position one stands in waiting to cross the road. A good example is Theobalds Road in London where you have to stand back almost against the wall, blocking the pavement, to be able to see the lights. |
Oxford Circus crossing
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:18:22 on Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Peter Campbell Smith remarked: To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings have the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of the road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. I suppose we'll get used to it, but I've already seen people: - look across the road, see no light and assume that there isn't a pedestrian phase, especially where there are others waiting and obscuring the new-style light, and - even more worryingly, look across the road (say south to north) and see the green man for the pedestrians crossing east to west, which is aimed directly south, and plunge across the road into the traffic. These new crossings are a complete disaster, and should be banned immediately. Is there a theoretical reason why they are supposed to be "better"? I did try Googling when one of the blasted things arrived near here, but couldn't find a good explanation. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Oxford Circus crossing
In message , at
17:44:06 on Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Arthur Figgis remarked: Is there a theoretical reason why they are supposed to be "better"? I did try Googling when one of the blasted things arrived near here, but couldn't find a good explanation. Yes, to look at the red/green men, you have to face the oncoming traffic. Supposedly you are therefore less likely to run across the road having failed to notice that there *is* and oncoming traffic (regardless of the state of the men). One of the many flaws is that if you are consciously wanting to look for the red/green men, you probably also aren't likely to be taking a punt on running across the road regardless of the state of the lights. For a couple of generations we've been trained, cajoled and exhorted to look for the red/green men across the road, high up. We simply don't expect to find them on our side of the road, at knee height. Sideways. -- Roland Perry |
Oxford Circus crossing
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 12:18:22 +0000 (UTC), Peter Campbell Smith
wrote: To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings have the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of the road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. I suppose we'll get used to it, but I've already seen people: I think those are an almighty pain in the backside, as it isn't necessarily possible to find the box, establish the light is green and cross the road without breaking stride from a fast walking pace, particularly if people are standing in the way of it or you are (as I am) a wearer of spectacles[1]. This is, OTOH, possible with the traditional type. Indeed, with those ones I often find myself looking at the traffic lights controlling the road traffic instead. [1] because they narrow your field of vision slightly compared with contact lenses or not needing any at all! :) Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Oxford Circus crossing
On 4 Nov, 20:46, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:44:06 on Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Arthur Figgis remarked: Is there a theoretical reason why they are supposed to be "better"? I did try Googling when one of the blasted things arrived near here, but couldn't find a good explanation. Yes, to look at the red/green men, you have to face the oncoming traffic. Supposedly you are therefore less likely to run across the road having failed to notice that there *is* and oncoming traffic (regardless of the state of the men). One of the many flaws is that if you are consciously wanting to look for the red/green men, you probably also aren't likely to be taking a punt on running across the road regardless of the state of the lights. For a couple of generations we've been trained, cajoled and exhorted to look for the red/green men across the road, high up. We simply don't expect to find them on our side of the road, at knee height. Sideways. Backwards in many situations. You have to look away from the road and/ or step back. |
Oxford Circus crossing
MIG wrote:
On 4 Nov, 20:46, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 17:44:06 on Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Arthur Figgis remarked: Is there a theoretical reason why they are supposed to be "better"? I did try Googling when one of the blasted things arrived near here, but couldn't find a good explanation. Yes, to look at the red/green men, you have to face the oncoming traffic. Supposedly you are therefore less likely to run across the road having failed to notice that there *is* and oncoming traffic (regardless of the state of the men). One of the many flaws is that if you are consciously wanting to look for the red/green men, you probably also aren't likely to be taking a punt on running across the road regardless of the state of the lights. For a couple of generations we've been trained, cajoled and exhorted to look for the red/green men across the road, high up. We simply don't expect to find them on our side of the road, at knee height. Sideways. Backwards in many situations. You have to look away from the road and/ or step back. Having another search, it seems the main feature is detecting people on the crossing and using that to adjust the timings. (OMFG now big brother watches us cross the road!!! etc etc) This page seems to say the lights are in a funny place for visually impred users. The information is contained only in an image, with no ALT text :-) http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tpm/...rossing?page=2 -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Oxford Circus crossing
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:46:15 +0000,
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 17:44:06 on Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Arthur Figgis remarked: Is there a theoretical reason why they are supposed to be "better"? I did try Googling when one of the blasted things arrived near here, but couldn't find a good explanation. Yes, to look at the red/green men, you have to face the oncoming traffic. Supposedly you are therefore less likely to run across the road having failed to notice that there *is* and oncoming traffic (regardless of the state of the men). One of the many flaws is that if you are consciously wanting to look for the red/green men, you probably also aren't likely to be taking a punt on running across the road regardless of the state of the lights. And are the sort of people who if the green man changes back to red as they step out will step back and wait for the next green man. Now they don't see it change back. Tim. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://www.woodall.me.uk/ |
Oxford Circus crossing
"Richard J." wrote in
: Since all the traffic now stops for the pedestrian phase, it should be safer than before. Many crossings in London have been changed so that all traffic stops for pedistrians, and Ocford Circus was like that before the changes. Given that we don't have kerb-edge doors to protect passengers on the streets of London, how is that different from any other light-controlled crossing in London? I'd suggest two reasons: Most pedestrian crossings are on the straight. Pedestrians stick to the pavement (until the green man), traffic sticks to the road. That's fine. Before the junction at Holborn was remodelled, the crossing over the left turn lane from Holborn into Kingsway was on the skew. You just had to learn that you had to stand back a bit when the 521 (then a Bendibus) came round as there was very, very little clearence between it and the pavement. The whole point of Oxford Circus is that this demarkation is lacking, and the pavement around there can be very crowded indeed. Safe 99.9% of the time? Yes. 99.9999% of the time? Not convinced. The other issue is that most pedestrains in London now ignore red/green men and cross if it seems to be safe to do so. The phasing often has so much time on red that you can watch the red man appear, amble up to and across a dual carriageway and still get to the other side before you get run over (well, I havn't been flattened yet ....) This is fine if you know the way the phasing works at a particular junction. What is also happening increasing often is that people who aren't paying sufficent attention see the red man, all the lights on red and step into the road pretty much as the traffic starts moving.... Now, the diagonal at Oxford Circus is actually quite a long way. I assume the phasing allows plenty of time for the slowest pedestrian to cross the diagonal which is going to leave an awuful lot of time on red when people are going to be tempted to cross. I really wouldn't want to get trapped in the middle with traffic all around me, yet that is exactly what was close to happening to people on Saturday. I'm sure there is an education issue here - for both pedestrians and drivers - but combine overcrowed pavements with the traffic levels at Oxford Circus which means that the junction won't always clear for the green phase - and the odd cyclist on his mobile who doesn't stop for anybody (I saw one in Oxford Street this evening) and I struggle to see how it can be "safe". |
Oxford Circus crossing
David Jackman pleasereplytogroup wrote
Now, the diagonal at Oxford Circus is actually quite a long way. I assume the phasing allows plenty of time for the slowest pedestrian to cross the diagonal which is going to leave an awuful lot of time on red when people are going to be tempted to cross. I really wouldn't want to get trapped in the middle with traffic all around me, yet that is exactly what was close to happening to people on Saturday. In the US there can be a countdown number as well so you can see exactly how long you have. Tfl is going to try this in London. -- Mike D |
Oxford Circus crossing
In message 01ca5f0f$ef6fa520$LocalHost@default, at 18:41:10 on Fri, 6
Nov 2009, Michael R N Dolbear remarked: In the US there can be a countdown number as well so you can see exactly how long you have. You get quite a good selection of pictures from all over the world at: http://images.google.co.uk/images?&q...trian+crossing Tfl is going to try this in London. -- Roland Perry |
Oxford Circus crossing
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... For a couple of generations we've been trained, cajoled and exhorted to look for the red/green men across the road, high up. We simply don't expect to find them on our side of the road, at knee height. Sideways. Not only that, but red and green men on the other side of the road constitute a pretty widely adopted standard across many parts of the world. Has anybody seen the our side/knee high (or at best waist high) arrangement anywhere outside the UK? Martin |
Oxford Circus crossing
On Sat, Nov 07, 2009 at 11:55:49AM -0000, Martin Rich wrote:
Not only that, but red and green men on the other side of the road constitute a pretty widely adopted standard across many parts of the world. Has anybody seen the our side/knee high (or at best waist high) arrangement anywhere outside the UK? Yes, but always accompanied by a light on the other side of the road in the normal place. -- David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness The test of the goodness of a thing is its fitness for use. If it fails on this first test, no amount of ornamentation or finish will make it any better, it will only make it more expensive and foolish. -- Frank Pick, lecture to the Design and Industries Assoc, 1916 |
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