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#1
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Weren't there supposed to be some diesel electric hybrids running on londons
streets by now? Have they arrived yet - I've not seen them - or has the idea been quietly binned? B2003 |
#2
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On Nov 9, 11:54*am, wrote:
Weren't there supposed to be some diesel electric hybrids running on londons streets by now? Have they arrived yet *- I've not seen them - or has the idea been quietly binned? There are a handful running on the 141 - made very obvious by the 'Another red bus going green for London' branding. It's a little alarming being on one that's stopped in traffic - the engine shudders to a halt, as if it's stalled, then the bus glides off silently. There's one pictured at http://www.londonbusroutes.net/photos/141.htm |
#3
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#4
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martin wrote
On Nov 9, 11:54*am, wrote: Weren't there supposed to be some diesel electric hybrids running on londons streets by now? Have they arrived yet *- I've not seen them - or has the idea been quietly binned? There are a handful running on the 141 - made very obvious by the [...] There are one or two running on the 371 (Kingston-Richmond) and I have traveled on one. -- Mike D |
#5
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Barry Salter wrote:
wrote: Weren't there supposed to be some diesel electric hybrids running on londons streets by now? Have they arrived yet - I've not seen them - or has the idea been quietly binned? As others have mentioned, they're in service, although not in large numbers - I've been on a 141 myself and regularly see them on the E8 and 371 although I've not tried those yet. Also on the TfL site[2], it's reported that the RV1 (Covent Garden - Tower Gateway) is to get five Hydrogen fuel cell buses in 2010. The very useful project/finance update documents TfL publish on their site say that the H2 bus project has been subject to cost escalations because the H2 is all imported and the drive trains have had trouble - they were going to have 5 fuel cell and 5 internal combustion H2 engines, but the latter aren't now happening so the total will be 8 fuel cell plus two diesel backups. IIRC the H2 is made from natural gas anyway, which implies the carbon is being stuck somewhere. [these are the same documents that imply the New Bus For London is a £50m+ project, as it's in the list of projects to be approved at the highest level, despite only costing £3.3m for the initial stages] Tom |
#6
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:14:06 +0000, Barry Salter
wrote: Also on the TfL site[2], it's reported that the RV1 (Covent Garden - Tower Gateway) is to get five Hydrogen fuel cell buses in 2010. I'm assuming the PVR is quite a bit bigger than that - and while I'm sure the Citaros are perfectly structurally sound, being of German build quality, they are in a right state inside and out and in dire need of a tarting-up. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
#7
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Most of London's hybrid buses can be recognised by the green leaf motif over
their traditional red livery, usually with a lack of the operator's corporate colour details. Optare (OPE) Versa, Alexander Dennis (ADL) Enviro400 double deck and Wrightbus Gemini 2 Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV) are all in advanced stages of development and evaluation. Martin G. Layton. .. |
#8
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![]() "Tom Barry" wrote in message ... Barry Salter wrote: wrote: Weren't there supposed to be some diesel electric hybrids running on londons streets by now? Have they arrived yet - I've not seen them - or has the idea been quietly binned? As others have mentioned, they're in service, although not in large numbers - I've been on a 141 myself and regularly see them on the E8 and 371 although I've not tried those yet. Also on the TfL site[2], it's reported that the RV1 (Covent Garden - Tower Gateway) is to get five Hydrogen fuel cell buses in 2010. The very useful project/finance update documents TfL publish on their site say that the H2 bus project has been subject to cost escalations because the H2 is all imported and the drive trains have had trouble - they were going to have 5 fuel cell and 5 internal combustion H2 engines, but the latter aren't now happening so the total will be 8 fuel cell plus two diesel backups. IIRC the H2 is made from natural gas anyway, which implies the carbon is being stuck somewhere. [these are the same documents that imply the New Bus For London is a £50m+ project, as it's in the list of projects to be approved at the highest level, despite only costing £3.3m for the initial stages] Tom AIUI, the long term plan is for Hydrogen to be a form of energy storage for surplus "renewable" power generated - it's claimed that using surplus (ie when the winds blow, the sun shines and the big waves roll all at the same time) to produce hydrogen is the cheapest storage medium - more cost-effective than batteries or pumped storage hydro-electric schemes. The claims are made by academics working in the "sustainability" area. Thus, the use of methane (ie natural gas) to make hydrogen out of its reaction with superheated steam with CO2 as a byproduct can only be a temporary source during the extended proof-of-concept of this fuel cell business. Meanwhile, the good old simple gas turbine is a proven technology and could work on a range of gaseous and liquid fuels, so why the emphasis on fuel cells leaves me a little confused. DW downunder |
#9
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DW downunder noname wrote
Also on the TfL site[2], it's reported that the RV1 (Covent Garden - Tower Gateway) is to get five Hydrogen fuel cell buses in 2010. The very useful project/finance update documents TfL publish on their site say that the H2 bus project has been subject to cost escalations because the H2 is all imported and the drive trains have had trouble - they were going to have 5 fuel cell and 5 internal combustion H2 engines, but the latter aren't now happening so the total will be 8 fuel cell plus two diesel backups. IIRC the H2 is made from natural gas anyway, which implies the carbon is being stuck somewhere. AIUI, the long term plan is for Hydrogen to be a form of energy storage for surplus "renewable" power generated - it's claimed that using surplus (ie when the winds blow, the sun shines and the big waves roll all at the same time) to produce hydrogen is the cheapest storage medium - more cost-effective than batteries or pumped storage hydro-electric schemes. The claims are made by academics working in the "sustainability" area. Thus, the use of methane (ie natural gas) to make hydrogen out of its reaction with superheated steam with CO2 as a byproduct can only be a temporary source during the extended proof-of-concept of this fuel cell business. Meanwhile, the good old simple gas turbine is a proven technology and could work on a range of gaseous and liquid fuels, so why the emphasis on fuel cells leaves me a little confused. The problem is that several different methods and combinations are possible but not yet economically proven. If a economic source of liquid fuel (say butanol) becomes available - either synthetic fuel from nuclear or wind electricty or biological without impacting food supplies - then hydrogen's handling disadvantages would cause it to disappear. However until there is an alternative if the energy is from hydrogen then fuel cells are there and ready to go. Mixing and trying to match a trial of both "road vehicles fueled with hydrogen" and another attempt at "gas turbine road vehicles" is not widely regarded as clever and nor would internal combustion using hydrogen be either. -- Mike D |
#10
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![]() "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message news:01ca656b$31515400$LocalHost@default... DW downunder noname wrote Also on the TfL site[2], it's reported that the RV1 (Covent Garden - Tower Gateway) is to get five Hydrogen fuel cell buses in 2010. The very useful project/finance update documents TfL publish on their site say that the H2 bus project has been subject to cost escalations because the H2 is all imported and the drive trains have had trouble - they were going to have 5 fuel cell and 5 internal combustion H2 engines, but the latter aren't now happening so the total will be 8 fuel cell plus two diesel backups. IIRC the H2 is made from natural gas anyway, which implies the carbon is being stuck somewhere. AIUI, the long term plan is for Hydrogen to be a form of energy storage for surplus "renewable" power generated - it's claimed that using surplus (ie when the winds blow, the sun shines and the big waves roll all at the same time) to produce hydrogen is the cheapest storage medium - more cost-effective than batteries or pumped storage hydro-electric schemes. The claims are made by academics working in the "sustainability" area. Thus, the use of methane (ie natural gas) to make hydrogen out of its reaction with superheated steam with CO2 as a byproduct can only be a temporary source during the extended proof-of-concept of this fuel cell business. Meanwhile, the good old simple gas turbine is a proven technology and could work on a range of gaseous and liquid fuels, so why the emphasis on fuel cells leaves me a little confused. The problem is that several different methods and combinations are possible but not yet economically proven. If a economic source of liquid fuel (say butanol) becomes available - either synthetic fuel from nuclear or wind electricty or biological without impacting food supplies - then hydrogen's handling disadvantages would cause it to disappear. However until there is an alternative if the energy is from hydrogen then fuel cells are there and ready to go. Mixing and trying to match a trial of both "road vehicles fueled with hydrogen" and another attempt at "gas turbine road vehicles" is not widely regarded as clever and nor would internal combustion using hydrogen be either. -- Mike D GT only as an internal combustion engine, agreed. GT's very inefficient at less than about 85% full power. But a battery-electric vehicle with GT-genset charger would be very future proofed. DW downunder |
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