On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 12:37:55PM +0000, Paul Terry wrote:
In message , David
Cantrell writes
Please could you let me know where the nearest *competent* Oyster shop
is to Thornton Heath station whose equipment actually works? Last time
I asked TfL they couldn't tell me. The nearest shop, according to them,
was about ten minutes walk away, and their machine was broken.
No idea which ones are competent, but there are ten Oyster Ticket Stops
within less than 10 minutes walk:
http://ticketstoplocator.tfl.gov.uk/...Code=CR7%208RX

Of those, I believe one no longer exists, two are in the wrong place on
the map, and one is one of those incredibly dodgy internet-cum-cheap-
phone-calls places that I would never want going anywhere near any of my
cards.

And none of them are visible from the station, so unless you know where
to go in advance, you're stuffed.

--
David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt

On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:01:10 +0000, David Cantrell
wrote:

" OEPs themselves are free but (and it's potentially a very big but)
they will only be available at places that already sell Oyster top-ups.
So you'll be able to get one in any TfL-run station, but - to use the
above Rectory Road example again – if I wanted to make the second
example journey above and didn't already have an OEP on my Oyster Card,
I would need to find a nearby newsagent that sold Oyster top-ups in
order to get one added to my card. I wouldn't be able to get one in
Rectory Road station itself. "

Which cannot be seen as anything other than "bloody stupid".

It might make more sense to make it a permanent switchover, so that
you either always can go out of zone (in which case you must always
touch out) or you never can. Or just enforce that touching in and out
is mandatory regardless of what's on your card.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 26 Nov, 20:35, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:01:10 +0000, David Cantrell

wrote:
" OEPs themselves are free but (and it's potentially a very big but)
*they will only be available at places that already sell Oyster top-ups.
*So you'll be able to get one in any TfL-run station, but - to use the
*above Rectory Road example again – if I wanted to make the second
*example journey above and didn't already have an OEP on my Oyster Card,
*I would need to find a nearby newsagent that sold Oyster top-ups in
*order to get one added to my card. I wouldn't be able to get one in
*Rectory Road station itself. "

Which cannot be seen as anything other than "bloody stupid".

It might make more sense to make it a permanent switchover, so that
you either always can go out of zone (in which case you must always
touch out) or you never can. *Or just enforce that touching in and out
is mandatory regardless of what's on your card.

I don't think that would be acceptable, even if it's something that
the minds behind Oyster might do.

It would be a rule for no purpose than to punish people for breaking
the rule, given that someone with a travelcard has paid in full for
the service they are using.

But it's that assumption of guilt again, that you don't get with a
paper travelcard, ie you are assumed to have gone beyond your zones
unless you can prove that you didn't.

On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:16:08 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

But it's that assumption of guilt again, that you don't get with a
paper travelcard, ie you are assumed to have gone beyond your zones
unless you can prove that you didn't.

That's the basis for most such smartcard schemes - charge the maximum
possible on entry, refund back on exit.

What it means is that anyone in the system (provided they don't go
past the boundary of its validity) always has a valid ticket provided
they've touched in.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 26 Nov, 22:31, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:16:08 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
But it's that assumption of guilt again, that you don't get with a
paper travelcard, ie you are assumed to have gone beyond your zones
unless you can prove that you didn't.

That's the basis for most such smartcard schemes - charge the maximum
possible on entry, refund back on exit.

What it means is that anyone in the system (provided they don't go
past the boundary of its validity) always has a valid ticket provided
they've touched in.

But someone with a travelcard has paid everything up front, for a
week, month or year, and they don't get charged anything when they
touch in or out. This would have to be about PFing them for breaking
a rule, despite not having avoided any fare, despite being
demonstrably in possession of a valid ticket, purely on the assumption
that they can't prove they aren't about to head for Thurso, just as
someone with a paper travelcard can't.

Neil Williams wrote:

Or just enforce that touching in and out
is mandatory regardless of what's on your card.

Then explain how you'd handle the following situations:

1). I sometimes visit my parents in Epsom, for which I get an extension to
my existing season ticket. I will not be able to touch out at Epsom so how
do I touch out. (And even if I can get special dispensation to enter through
the barriers without touching in, I may well not be on an Epsom train for
all of the journey, but instead changing at Sutton.)

2). I come home in the peak hours to a station where all passengers have to
squeeze through a narrow hallway where there will only be a couple of
readers at the side. It is completely unrealistic to expect everyone in peak
hours to stop to touch out on such limited facilities without serious
problems. There will be tensions with people who are slow, everyone will
have just spent four minutes literally ram packed into poorly laid out
carriages where tempers do get frayed (and it's only the sardine effect that
stops people being able to swing a punch) and there will be crowds stuck on
the staircase up from the platform. I can seriously envisage some people in
a hurry taking a risk and walking across the mainline tracks in the dark to
use readers on a quiet platform which has an exit directly onto the street.

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Neil Williams wrote:

Or just enforce that touching in and out
is mandatory regardless of what's on your card.

Then explain how you'd handle the following situations:

1). I sometimes visit my parents in Epsom, for which I get an extension to
my existing season ticket. I will not be able to touch out at Epsom so how
do I touch out. (And even if I can get special dispensation to enter
through the barriers without touching in, I may well not be on an Epsom
train for all of the journey, but instead changing at Sutton.)

Bad example Epsom is irrelevant to the 'OEP discussion' because it is
outside the zones. You'll have to do exactly what you do already - ie buy a
ticket?

Paul S

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 11:32:37 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
Neil Williams wrote:

Or just enforce that touching in and out
is mandatory regardless of what's on your card.

Then explain how you'd handle the following situations:

1). I sometimes visit my parents in Epsom, for which I get an extension to
my existing season ticket. I will not be able to touch out at Epsom so how
do I touch out. (And even if I can get special dispensation to enter through

You probably don't need to. Next time you touch in it'll charge maximum fare
from the station you started in the previous time, which since epsom is
beyond zone 6 is the fare you'd have paid anyway.

B2003

On 27 Nov, 11:44, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message

...

Neil Williams wrote:

Or just enforce that touching in and out
is mandatory regardless of what's on your card.

Then explain how you'd handle the following situations:

1). I sometimes visit my parents in Epsom, for which I get an extension to
my existing season ticket. I will not be able to touch out at Epsom so how
do I touch out. (And even if I can get special dispensation to enter
through the barriers without touching in, I may well not be on an Epsom
train for all of the journey, but instead changing at Sutton.)

Bad example Epsom is irrelevant to the 'OEP discussion' because it is
outside the zones. You'll have to do exactly what you do already - ie buy a
ticket?

Paul S

This was following on from a suggestion for doing away with the OEP by
making touching compulsory for any Oyster use.

However, I've suggested that could only be enforced by eg PFing a
travelcard holder for not touching, despite having a valid ticket.
Tim has pointed out that it's not always physically possible to touch
anyway.

His example is the same as any situation where you currently have to
get off and wait for the next train (an hour later maybe) to be able
to extend after using PAYG, but at least you don't have to do that as
an additional validation for travelcards (yet).

On Nov 27, 11:44*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message

...

Neil Williams wrote:

Or just enforce that touching in and out
is mandatory regardless of what's on your card.

Then explain how you'd handle the following situations:

1). I sometimes visit my parents in Epsom, for which I get an extension to
my existing season ticket. I will not be able to touch out at Epsom so how
do I touch out. (And even if I can get special dispensation to enter
through the barriers without touching in, I may well not be on an Epsom
train for all of the journey, but instead changing at Sutton.)

Bad example Epsom is irrelevant to the 'OEP discussion' because it is
outside the zones. You'll have to do exactly what you do already - ie buy a
ticket?

No, you're missing the point. If I have a z12 Travelcard on Oyster,
and I want to go to Epsom, then I can buy a BZ2-Epsom ticket from a NR
ticket office.

Under your "touching out is mandatory for Travelcard users" model, I'd
be penalised for doing this, because I'd have touched in at Waterloo
and wouldn't have touched out anywhere.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org