Paul Scott wrote:

Or just enforce that touching in and out
is mandatory regardless of what's on your card.

Then explain how you'd handle the following situations:

1). I sometimes visit my parents in Epsom, for which I get an extension
to my existing season ticket. I will not be able to touch out at Epsom so
how do I touch out. (And even if I can get special dispensation to enter
through the barriers without touching in, I may well not be on an Epsom
train for all of the journey, but instead changing at Sutton.)

Bad example Epsom is irrelevant to the 'OEP discussion' because it is
outside the zones. You'll have to do exactly what you do already - ie buy
a ticket?

I buy an extension (and *really* hate the queues to do so) but still have to
touch in when entering at the London end. If it was compulsory to *always*
touch in I'd end up with penalties for not touching out when it's not
possible to do so at my extended destination.

wrote:

Then explain how you'd handle the following situations:

1). I sometimes visit my parents in Epsom, for which I get an extension to
my existing season ticket. I will not be able to touch out at Epsom so how
do I touch out. (And even if I can get special dispensation to enter
through

You probably don't need to. Next time you touch in it'll charge maximum
fare
from the station you started in the previous time, which since epsom is
beyond zone 6 is the fare you'd have paid anyway.

Erm I'd still have to buy the paper extension to get through the barriers at
Epsom. And I'm not quite sure what you mean about where the maximum fare
charged - is that additional?

On 27 Nov, 12:52, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:
wrote:
Then explain how you'd handle the following situations:
1). I sometimes visit my parents in Epsom, for which I get an extension to
my existing season ticket. I will not be able to touch out at Epsom so how
do I touch out. (And even if I can get special dispensation to enter
through
You probably don't need to. Next time you touch in it'll charge maximum
fare
from the station you started in the previous time, which since epsom is
beyond zone 6 is the fare you'd have paid anyway.

Erm I'd still have to buy the paper extension to get through the barriers at
Epsom. And I'm not quite sure what you mean about where the maximum fare
charged - is that additional?

Well, it would depend on how the proposed "always touch, even with a
travelcard" rule would be enforced. It's a bit hypothetical really.
You might not have any PAYG balance to deduct. Would your travelcard
be disabled? Would you be PFed? Back to Neil for suggestions I think.

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:52:27 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
wrote:

Then explain how you'd handle the following situations:

1). I sometimes visit my parents in Epsom, for which I get an extension to
my existing season ticket. I will not be able to touch out at Epsom so how
do I touch out. (And even if I can get special dispensation to enter
through

You probably don't need to. Next time you touch in it'll charge maximum
fare
from the station you started in the previous time, which since epsom is
beyond zone 6 is the fare you'd have paid anyway.

Erm I'd still have to buy the paper extension to get through the barriers at
Epsom. And I'm not quite sure what you mean about where the maximum fare
charged - is that additional?

I not 100% sure how its worked out but if you touch in but don't touch
out then the NEXT time you touch in a fare is deducted that I think would have
been charged for the maximum distance from your previous touch in to the
outermost travelcard zone. Whether thats zone 6 or amersham I'm not sure.

B2003

On 27 Nov, 14:06, wrote:
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:52:27 -0000





"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
wrote:

Then explain how you'd handle the following situations:

1). I sometimes visit my parents in Epsom, for which I get an extension to
my existing season ticket. I will not be able to touch out at Epsom so how
do I touch out. (And even if I can get special dispensation to enter
through

You probably don't need to. Next time you touch in it'll charge maximum
fare
from the station you started in the previous time, which since epsom is
beyond zone 6 is the fare you'd have paid anyway.

Erm I'd still have to buy the paper extension to get through the barriers at
Epsom. And I'm not quite sure what you mean about where the maximum fare
charged - is that additional?

I not 100% sure how its worked out but if you touch in but don't touch
out then the NEXT time you touch in a fare is deducted that I think would have
been charged for the maximum distance from your previous touch in to the
outermost travelcard zone. Whether thats zone 6 or amersham I'm not sure.

B2003-

This is just a hypothetical punishment for not touching a travelcard,
so it isn't currently worked out at all.

John B wrote:
On Nov 27, 11:44 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message

...

Neil Williams wrote:

Or just enforce that touching in and out
is mandatory regardless of what's on your card.

Then explain how you'd handle the following situations:

1). I sometimes visit my parents in Epsom, for which I get an
extension to my existing season ticket. I will not be able to touch
out at Epsom so how do I touch out. (And even if I can get special
dispensation to enter through the barriers without touching in, I
may well not be on an Epsom train for all of the journey, but
instead changing at Sutton.)

Bad example Epsom is irrelevant to the 'OEP discussion' because it is
outside the zones. You'll have to do exactly what you do already -
ie buy a ticket?

No, you're missing the point. If I have a z12 Travelcard on Oyster,
and I want to go to Epsom, then I can buy a BZ2-Epsom ticket from a NR
ticket office.

Under your "touching out is mandatory for Travelcard users" model, I'd
be penalised for doing this, because I'd have touched in at Waterloo
and wouldn't have touched out anywhere.

That was Neil Williams' idea, I was really just (confusingly as it turned
out) pointing out Epsom was beyond the boundary...

Paul S

In message , Paul Scott
writes

The media briefing 'FAQs' suggests that Oyster PAYG top ups at least will be
available at 'most NR stations', presumably via modifications to the TVMs.

There are already some TOC stations where Oyster Travelcards are retailed,
maybe these will be increased as well?

I've just come across an interesting document on the ATOC website about
National Rail retailing Oyster products:

http://www.atoc.org/secure_doc/rsp/~...ice_update.pdf

.... which indicates that an Oyster update for FasTIS+ was being tested
last week and is scheduled for an imminent rollout.

I don't know how many FasTIS+ machines are installed in the London area,
but I think it is considerably more than just those in joint LU/NR
stations - ISTR c2c and Chiltern, at least, have them.

I have a vague feeling that the type of small 'Pearl' Oyster reader used
in Ticket Stops can be added FasTIS+, which then only needs the software
upgrade to add Oyster functionality relatively cheaply.

--
Paul Terry

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 11:32:37 -0000, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

1). I sometimes visit my parents in Epsom, for which I get an extension to
my existing season ticket. I will not be able to touch out at Epsom so how
do I touch out. (And even if I can get special dispensation to enter through
the barriers without touching in, I may well not be on an Epsom train for
all of the journey, but instead changing at Sutton.)

Instead of selling BZ extension tickets as extension tickets, it would
be an option to sell them as a through ticket (that will open the
barriers at both ends) marked as valid only with Oyster card number N,
and discounted for the bit "already held" just as it is now.

2). I come home in the peak hours to a station where all passengers have to
squeeze through a narrow hallway where there will only be a couple of
readers at the side. It is completely unrealistic to expect everyone in peak
hours to stop to touch out on such limited facilities without serious
problems.

Then more readers would be necessary.

I just think it's better to be consistent, and there's a revenue
protection benefit as well.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 04:41:58 -0800 (PST), John B
wrote:

Under your "touching out is mandatory for Travelcard users" model, I'd
be penalised for doing this, because I'd have touched in at Waterloo
and wouldn't have touched out anywhere.

No, because you'd mark the BZ tickets as "only valid with Oyster card
number N" and make them open the barriers at both ends, so you
wouldn't touch your Oyster at all.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 04:55:58 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

Well, it would depend on how the proposed "always touch, even with a
travelcard" rule would be enforced. It's a bit hypothetical really.
You might not have any PAYG balance to deduct. Would your travelcard
be disabled? Would you be PFed? Back to Neil for suggestions I think.

I suppose a "paper PF" would have to be charged if you actually went
out of zone without enough money on your card to do so. So I suppose
an OEP would be implicit by having enough money on your card.

"If you wish to go out of zone you must have a minimum balance on your
Oyster card of £10, or you will be charged a Penalty Fare if
discovered" (say) is easier to explain and actually do than having to
get an OEP for each journey.

I don't believe OEPs are aimed at people who use an Oyster to open the
barriers at Euston then go to Bletchley, for instance (which if you're
in the know would be an easy dodge as grips on LM are rare and 99% of
the time the barriers are open and unmanned in the evening at
Bletchley) - if caught, a traditional PF is due. The point is that
you can't be PFed if you've got a touched-in Oyster card within the
Oyster area, which takes away the whole revenue protection concept of
the mainline areas that aren't barriered. So a tenner would seem
plenty.

If you don't like the idea of deduct and refund and don't ever want to
go out of zone, you would then have the option of not putting a PAYG
balance on your card. But go out of zone and get caught, and a PF is
due.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.