On Dec 11, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote:
In any case, TfL could easily ensure that Oyster cards were available
for gbp10 with gbp7 credit and gbp20 with gbp17 credit from vending
machines at all airports, mainline terminals and major Tube stations -
and from behind the counter at hotels, ticket stops, etc, packaged
with a 10-language leaflet on how to top them up. That'd be pretty
straightforward for everyone.

(and very few people would bother getting a refund, which is a bonus
from Londoners' perspective.)

That would mean doing something helpful that takes into account
people's circumstances.

That is not the general approach to the introduction of Oyster so far,
so why should it suddenly change?

Yes it is. See: pioneering daily capping; giving people two years to
get used to touching in and out before imposing penalties; ensuring
that top-up machines were fitted in all stations before abolishing
paper seasons; etc.

I know that you've got an irrational phobia of Oyster, but suggesting
that it's made life more rather than less difficult for people, and
has failed to take into account people's circumstances, is simply
false - and TfL has demonstrably offset

Hell, look at the NR roll-out: it's now clear that the vast majority
of NR stations inside the zones will have Oyster top-ups enabled by
January (against the sneering from here 'oooh, you'll have to get a
permit at a Tube station because NR doesn't do Oyster', etc ad
nauseam).

"TfL could easily" have done a number of things that took into account
reality over the the last few years, but they refused.

The only things TfL could've done to make Oyster more useable would've
required the permission of the TOCs, and with DfT refusing to wield
big sticks at them TfL's hands were tied. OEPs are a massive,
ridiculous pain in the arse, as is the fact that new PAYG lines will
be on rail rather than standard Tube payscales. TfL spent years trying
to ensure that they weren't, but ultimately couldn't.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Fri, 11 Dec 2009, John B wrote:

On Dec 11, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote:
In any case, TfL could easily ensure that Oyster cards were available
for gbp10 with gbp7 credit and gbp20 with gbp17 credit from vending
machines at all airports, mainline terminals and major Tube stations -
and from behind the counter at hotels, ticket stops, etc, packaged
with a 10-language leaflet on how to top them up. That'd be pretty
straightforward for everyone.

(and very few people would bother getting a refund, which is a bonus
from Londoners' perspective.)

That would mean doing something helpful that takes into account
people's circumstances. That is not the general approach to the
introduction of Oyster so far, so why should it suddenly change? "TfL
could easily" have done a number of things that took into account
reality over the the last few years, but they refused.

The only things TfL could've done to make Oyster more useable would've
required the permission of the TOCs

There could be a way to top up oysters without the use of coins after the
tube stations have closed. Machines which took either cards or notes. Just
in the central area. As it stands, if you're out of credit and out of
coins, but you have a working cash or credit card, you're stuffed - there
is *no way* to pay for a bus. I've been affected by this when getting home
late at night, and i've seen tourists arriving off an airport coach being
affected too. I, of course, could enable auto top-up. The tourists
couldn't.

The TOCs have nothing to do with this.

On the flip side, that's about the only thing that would make Oyster more
convenient for me. That and adding a lot more ticket machines - there is
still space in stations being wasted by cash-for-card ticket machines, and
not enough card-for-credit ones.

tom

--
10 PARTY : GOTO 10

In message , asdf
writes

What about all the tourists? It's hard for many of them to understand
Oyster. Plus it would waste their time, and increase TfL's costs, if
everyone visiting London (even for a day) had to buy an Oyster card,
use it, then get their deposit refunded at a staffed ticket window.

That's why the Oyster Visitor card exists (no deposit, although there is
a small fee to cover the cost of posting it out in advance).
--
Paul Terry

On 11 Dec, 16:17, John B wrote:
On Dec 11, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote:

In any case, TfL could easily ensure that Oyster cards were available
for gbp10 with gbp7 credit and gbp20 with gbp17 credit from vending
machines at all airports, mainline terminals and major Tube stations -
and from behind the counter at hotels, ticket stops, etc, packaged
with a 10-language leaflet on how to top them up. That'd be pretty
straightforward for everyone.

(and very few people would bother getting a refund, which is a bonus
from Londoners' perspective.)

That would mean doing something helpful that takes into account
people's circumstances.

That is not the general approach to the introduction of Oyster so far,
so why should it suddenly change?

Yes it is. See: pioneering daily capping; giving people two years to
get used to touching in and out before imposing penalties; ensuring
that top-up machines were fitted in all stations before abolishing
paper seasons; etc.

I know that you've got an irrational phobia of Oyster, but suggesting
that it's made life more rather than less difficult for people, and
has failed to take into account people's circumstances, is simply
false - and TfL has demonstrably offset

Hell, look at the NR roll-out: it's now clear that the vast majority
of NR stations inside the zones will have Oyster top-ups enabled by
January (against the sneering from here 'oooh, you'll have to get a
permit at a Tube station because NR doesn't do Oyster', etc ad
nauseam).

"TfL could easily" have done a number of things that took into account
reality over the the last few years, but they refused.

The only things TfL could've done to make Oyster more useable would've
required the permission of the TOCs, and with DfT refusing to wield
big sticks at them TfL's hands were tied. OEPs are a massive,
ridiculous pain in the arse, as is the fact that new PAYG lines will
be on rail rather than standard Tube payscales. TfL spent years trying
to ensure that they weren't, but ultimately couldn't.

It was, and still is, entirely within TfL's control not to charge
penalty fares to punish people for not using Oyster despite Oyster not
being fully available.

If Oyster is so good, why do they fine people so heavily for not using
it, even when they haven't got the option of using it?

Unless that can be answered, all apologist claptrap is worthless.

On Dec 11, 6:33*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009, John B wrote:
On Dec 11, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote:
In any case, TfL could easily ensure that Oyster cards were available
for gbp10 with gbp7 credit and gbp20 with gbp17 credit from vending
machines at all airports, mainline terminals and major Tube stations -
and from behind the counter at hotels, ticket stops, etc, packaged
with a 10-language leaflet on how to top them up. That'd be pretty
straightforward for everyone.

(and very few people would bother getting a refund, which is a bonus
from Londoners' perspective.)

That would mean doing something helpful that takes into account
people's circumstances. That is not the general approach to the
introduction of Oyster so far, so why should it suddenly change? "TfL
could easily" have done a number of things that took into account
reality over the the last few years, but they refused.

The only things TfL could've done to make Oyster more useable would've
required the permission of the TOCs

There could be a way to top up oysters without the use of coins after the
tube stations have closed. Machines which took either cards or notes. Just
in the central area. As it stands, if you're out of credit and out of
coins, but you have a working cash or credit card, you're stuffed - there
is *no way* to pay for a bus. I've been affected by this when getting home
late at night, and i've seen tourists arriving off an airport coach being
affected too. I, of course, could enable auto top-up. The tourists
couldn't.

The TOCs have nothing to do with this.

That's true. The problem is vandalism, isn't it? - the bus coin
machines are hard enough to keep operational; I can't see a free-
standing machine that also took notes faring any better.

An ideal solution would be to fit Oyster readers to ATMs and allow top-
up there, but that took mobile phone companies 10 years after the
introduction of PAYG to implement *without* any hardware requirements,
so I'm not holding my breath.

On the flip side, that's about the only thing that would make Oyster more
convenient for me. That and adding a lot more ticket machines - there is
still space in stations being wasted by cash-for-card ticket machines, and
not enough card-for-credit ones.

Hmm. I've pretty much never had to queue for a top-up, IMX the queues
are for the paper ticket machines and especially the big idiot-proof
ones where you press your destination. MX might not be representative
though.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Dec 11, 11:30*pm, MIG wrote:
On 11 Dec, 16:17, John B wrote:



On Dec 11, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote:

In any case, TfL could easily ensure that Oyster cards were available
for gbp10 with gbp7 credit and gbp20 with gbp17 credit from vending
machines at all airports, mainline terminals and major Tube stations -
and from behind the counter at hotels, ticket stops, etc, packaged
with a 10-language leaflet on how to top them up. That'd be pretty
straightforward for everyone.

(and very few people would bother getting a refund, which is a bonus
from Londoners' perspective.)

That would mean doing something helpful that takes into account
people's circumstances.

That is not the general approach to the introduction of Oyster so far,
so why should it suddenly change?

Yes it is. See: pioneering daily capping; giving people two years to
get used to touching in and out before imposing penalties; ensuring
that top-up machines were fitted in all stations before abolishing
paper seasons; etc.

I know that you've got an irrational phobia of Oyster, but suggesting
that it's made life more rather than less difficult for people, and
has failed to take into account people's circumstances, is simply
false - and TfL has demonstrably offset

Hell, look at the NR roll-out: it's now clear that the vast majority
of NR stations inside the zones will have Oyster top-ups enabled by
January (against the sneering from here 'oooh, you'll have to get a
permit at a Tube station because NR doesn't do Oyster', etc ad
nauseam).

"TfL could easily" have done a number of things that took into account
reality over the the last few years, but they refused.

The only things TfL could've done to make Oyster more useable would've
required the permission of the TOCs, and with DfT refusing to wield
big sticks at them TfL's hands were tied. OEPs are a massive,
ridiculous pain in the arse, as is the fact that new PAYG lines will
be on rail rather than standard Tube payscales. TfL spent years trying
to ensure that they weren't, but ultimately couldn't.

It was, and still is, entirely within TfL's control not to charge
penalty fares to punish people for not using Oyster despite Oyster not
being fully available.

If Oyster is so good, why do they fine people so heavily for not using
it, even when they haven't got the option of using it?

Unless that can be answered, all apologist claptrap is worthless.

They don't. That a simple enough answer?

Seriously: you can't be 'fined' (I'm assuming 'fined' means 'charged a
bit more for your ticket', as the literal definition is just nonsense)
for not using Oyster if you don't have the option of using it.

On the routes where you don't have the option of using Oyster - say,
Crayford to London Bridge - you can buy a CDS or CDR; on the routes
where you do have the option of using Oyster - say, London Bridge to
High Barnet - you can touch in and get the Oyster fare.

Before Oyster, you'd still have needed to buy separate paper tickets
from Crayford-LBG and LBG-High Barnet: nothing has changed. Or you
could have bought a ODTC covering the whole journey, which you still
can: nothing has changed.

Oyster has brought massive benefits to people living within the areas
where it's fully accepted. It's much less relevant to people living in
the areas where it isn't fully accepted, which is the fault of the
TOCs and the DfT and which will finally (mostly) be addressed by
January.

But it hasn't made life *any worse* for people living in the areas
where it isn't accepted. The way it's been implemented, with old-style
NR fares available on all NR routes, with low point-to-point Tube and
bus fares available to anyone with an Oyster card whether they live in
Angel, Bexley or Timbuktu, and with ODTCs still fully available to all
comers, means that it definitionally can't.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 12 Dec, 13:27, John B wrote:
On Dec 11, 11:30*pm, MIG wrote:





On 11 Dec, 16:17, John B wrote:

On Dec 11, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote:

In any case, TfL could easily ensure that Oyster cards were available
for gbp10 with gbp7 credit and gbp20 with gbp17 credit from vending
machines at all airports, mainline terminals and major Tube stations -
and from behind the counter at hotels, ticket stops, etc, packaged
with a 10-language leaflet on how to top them up. That'd be pretty
straightforward for everyone.

(and very few people would bother getting a refund, which is a bonus
from Londoners' perspective.)

That would mean doing something helpful that takes into account
people's circumstances.

That is not the general approach to the introduction of Oyster so far,
so why should it suddenly change?

Yes it is. See: pioneering daily capping; giving people two years to
get used to touching in and out before imposing penalties; ensuring
that top-up machines were fitted in all stations before abolishing
paper seasons; etc.

I know that you've got an irrational phobia of Oyster, but suggesting
that it's made life more rather than less difficult for people, and
has failed to take into account people's circumstances, is simply
false - and TfL has demonstrably offset

Hell, look at the NR roll-out: it's now clear that the vast majority
of NR stations inside the zones will have Oyster top-ups enabled by
January (against the sneering from here 'oooh, you'll have to get a
permit at a Tube station because NR doesn't do Oyster', etc ad
nauseam).

"TfL could easily" have done a number of things that took into account
reality over the the last few years, but they refused.

The only things TfL could've done to make Oyster more useable would've
required the permission of the TOCs, and with DfT refusing to wield
big sticks at them TfL's hands were tied. OEPs are a massive,
ridiculous pain in the arse, as is the fact that new PAYG lines will
be on rail rather than standard Tube payscales. TfL spent years trying
to ensure that they weren't, but ultimately couldn't.

It was, and still is, entirely within TfL's control not to charge
penalty fares to punish people for not using Oyster despite Oyster not
being fully available.

If Oyster is so good, why do they fine people so heavily for not using
it, even when they haven't got the option of using it?

Unless that can be answered, all apologist claptrap is worthless.

They don't. That a simple enough answer?

Seriously: you can't be 'fined' (I'm assuming 'fined' means 'charged a
bit more for your ticket', as the literal definition is just nonsense)
for not using Oyster if you don't have the option of using it.

On the routes where you don't have the option of using Oyster - say,
Crayford to London Bridge - you can buy a CDS or CDR; on the routes
where you do have the option of using Oyster - say, London Bridge to
High Barnet - you can touch in and get the Oyster fare.

Before Oyster, you'd still have needed to buy separate paper tickets
from Crayford-LBG and LBG-High Barnet: nothing has changed. Or you
could have bought a ODTC covering the whole journey, which you still
can: nothing has changed.

Oyster has brought massive benefits to people living within the areas
where it's fully accepted. It's much less relevant to people living in
the areas where it isn't fully accepted, which is the fault of the
TOCs and the DfT and which will finally (mostly) be addressed by
January.

But it hasn't made life *any worse* for people living in the areas
where it isn't accepted. The way it's been implemented, with old-style
NR fares available on all NR routes, with low point-to-point Tube and
bus fares available to anyone with an Oyster card whether they live in
Angel, Bexley or Timbuktu, and with ODTCs still fully available to all
comers, means that it definitionally can't.

You don't seem to take into account the fact that many hundreds of
thousands of people (if not millions) live in places where Oyster is
not available but spend a lot of time in travelling to and perhaps
working in places where non-Oyster ticketing is penalised, either by
hugely hiked fares or by ridiculous inconvenience, like having to get
off to touch in or out.

But all this has been done over and over.

On 12 Dec, 13:54, MIG wrote:
On 12 Dec, 13:27, John B wrote:





On Dec 11, 11:30*pm, MIG wrote:

On 11 Dec, 16:17, John B wrote:

On Dec 11, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote:

In any case, TfL could easily ensure that Oyster cards were available
for gbp10 with gbp7 credit and gbp20 with gbp17 credit from vending
machines at all airports, mainline terminals and major Tube stations -
and from behind the counter at hotels, ticket stops, etc, packaged
with a 10-language leaflet on how to top them up. That'd be pretty
straightforward for everyone.

(and very few people would bother getting a refund, which is a bonus
from Londoners' perspective.)

That would mean doing something helpful that takes into account
people's circumstances.

That is not the general approach to the introduction of Oyster so far,
so why should it suddenly change?

Yes it is. See: pioneering daily capping; giving people two years to
get used to touching in and out before imposing penalties; ensuring
that top-up machines were fitted in all stations before abolishing
paper seasons; etc.

I know that you've got an irrational phobia of Oyster, but suggesting
that it's made life more rather than less difficult for people, and
has failed to take into account people's circumstances, is simply
false - and TfL has demonstrably offset

Hell, look at the NR roll-out: it's now clear that the vast majority
of NR stations inside the zones will have Oyster top-ups enabled by
January (against the sneering from here 'oooh, you'll have to get a
permit at a Tube station because NR doesn't do Oyster', etc ad
nauseam).

"TfL could easily" have done a number of things that took into account
reality over the the last few years, but they refused.

The only things TfL could've done to make Oyster more useable would've
required the permission of the TOCs, and with DfT refusing to wield
big sticks at them TfL's hands were tied. OEPs are a massive,
ridiculous pain in the arse, as is the fact that new PAYG lines will
be on rail rather than standard Tube payscales. TfL spent years trying
to ensure that they weren't, but ultimately couldn't.

It was, and still is, entirely within TfL's control not to charge
penalty fares to punish people for not using Oyster despite Oyster not
being fully available.

If Oyster is so good, why do they fine people so heavily for not using
it, even when they haven't got the option of using it?

Unless that can be answered, all apologist claptrap is worthless.

They don't. That a simple enough answer?

Seriously: you can't be 'fined' (I'm assuming 'fined' means 'charged a
bit more for your ticket', as the literal definition is just nonsense)
for not using Oyster if you don't have the option of using it.

On the routes where you don't have the option of using Oyster - say,
Crayford to London Bridge - you can buy a CDS or CDR; on the routes
where you do have the option of using Oyster - say, London Bridge to
High Barnet - you can touch in and get the Oyster fare.

Before Oyster, you'd still have needed to buy separate paper tickets
from Crayford-LBG and LBG-High Barnet: nothing has changed. Or you
could have bought a ODTC covering the whole journey, which you still
can: nothing has changed.

Oyster has brought massive benefits to people living within the areas
where it's fully accepted. It's much less relevant to people living in
the areas where it isn't fully accepted, which is the fault of the
TOCs and the DfT and which will finally (mostly) be addressed by
January.

But it hasn't made life *any worse* for people living in the areas
where it isn't accepted. The way it's been implemented, with old-style
NR fares available on all NR routes, with low point-to-point Tube and
bus fares available to anyone with an Oyster card whether they live in
Angel, Bexley or Timbuktu, and with ODTCs still fully available to all
comers, means that it definitionally can't.

You don't seem to take into account the fact that many hundreds of
thousands of people (if not millions) live in places where Oyster is
not available but spend a lot of time in travelling to and perhaps
working in places where non-Oyster ticketing is penalised, either by
hugely hiked fares or by ridiculous inconvenience, like having to get
off to touch in or out.

But all this has been done over and over.

And I should have said, whether or not it's technically a fine, why
have they so little confidence in the benefits of Oyster that they
charge what are effectively penalty fares to people who don't use it?
The repeated assertions will never be believable while this remains
the case.

On 12 Dec, 14:26, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:17:42 -0800 (PST), John B
wrote:

I think you are making a bit too much of the negative aspect and
conflating two issues. *The agreement to adapt TOC vending machines to
retail PAYG is a sudden but very welcome change. *I suspect it has come
from a very sudden realization that all hell will break lose on 4/1/10
when people want to use Oyster and can't get a card or add value at a
TOC station. *All of that business walking down to the road to TfL
Ticket Stops is a step too far and possibly one that the DfT refused to
compensate TOCs for. *That SWT is outside of this agreement at the
present time is a big negative given the sheer size of their network
south of the Thames. It is perhaps related to their ongoing dispute with
the DfT about their franchise terms - does anyone know what is happening
on that? *Wasn't it going to the industry recognized adjudication
process?

OEPs is a separate issue and I think it's clear that this concept is
unpopular with people even though there is an evasion risk associated
with travelling beyond zonal season availability into PAYG territory.
What is not clear is whether the modified TOC vending machines will
retail PAYG *and* also set OEPs as part of their upgraded functionality.
If that is the case then it avoids people having to seek out TfL
ticketing facilities to set OEPs before they travel out of zone -
assuming a start in TOC territory and within the validity of a
Travelcard.


Just on that machines point, some machines at Euston, which are pretty
standard NR machines (can't remember the names of different machine
types) already have Oyster functionality, presumably because of LO.

Therefore, for all TOCs who use that kind of machine at least, the
work is already done without further redesign, presumably.

On 12 Dec, 14:55, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 06:40:01 -0800 (PST), MIG





wrote:
On 12 Dec, 14:26, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:17:42 -0800 (PST), John B
What is not clear is whether the modified TOC vending machines will
retail PAYG *and* also set OEPs as part of their upgraded functionality.
If that is the case then it avoids people having to seek out TfL
ticketing facilities to set OEPs before they travel out of zone -
assuming a start in TOC territory and within the validity of a
Travelcard.

Just on that machines point, some machines at Euston, which are pretty
standard NR machines (can't remember the names of different machine
types) already have Oyster functionality, presumably because of LO.

Therefore, for all TOCs who use that kind of machine at least, the
work is already done without further redesign, presumably.

Yes but I don't know if those machines can set OEPs. LUL machines have
the functionality already so I am told - I have not personally tried as
my staff pass can't have OEPs set on it. *In a piece of great irony (for
you) if I wish to take advantage of privilege PAYG on NR I will need a
separate Oyster card which has to be registered and will play all the
tunes that normal PAYG plays. *I also end up with some interesting
conundrums about what to do where my TfL staff pass validity runs out
and PAYG would take over. *I either overpay by validating PAYG within
the area of my staff pass, get off at the boundary and wait for the next
train or (risking my pass altogether) don't validate at all and suffer a
maximum fare deduction by validating on exit with my PAYG. *All good
stuff :-)

I think I will start a campaign to have validators installed on trains
so I don't have to get off at the boundary point (one of your big
complaints!). *Thought you might find that a little amusing.
--
Paul C

Yeah, your staff pass ends up effectively the same as a less-than-all-
zones paper travelcard on LU in that sense. Now that I am usually
outboundary, the issue only affects me on the Metropolitan beyond zone
6.

I suspect that validators in trains now would be hugely expensive,
after so much has been invested in barriers and standalones, and won't
happen, but it seems a bit short sighted (or perhaps lacking in
confidence about expansion and the number of exceptions that will
continue to arise) that it wasn't part of the plan from the
beginning. There will always be some kind of boundary till Oyster
covers the whole country (and then there's Europe ...).