On Dec 26, 2:30*pm, "Basil Jet"
wrote:
wrote:
On 25 Dec, 11:19, Fig wrote:

Much better.
Very educational and pretty amusing to.
I think he made a small error right at the end though, by using the
old Blackfriars Railway Bridge to illustrate 'unfinished London'?

I agree. *It's also hardly correct to say that Beeching had 'An
incurable phobia of trains'.

His phobia was of railways that hardly had any trains.

*thread drift*

How on earth did BR and Beeching justify closing the assorted London
railways that were axed?

While I know London's population was in decline at the time, it never
went much below seven million - so something like Finsbury Park to
Edgware via Highgate should hardly have been bracketed along with the
many "slow route from nowhere-in-Wales to nowhere-in-Wales via nowhere-
in-England"-type cuts that were rightly made.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

In article
,
(John B) wrote:

On Dec 26, 2:30*pm, "Basil Jet"
wrote:
wrote:
On 25 Dec, 11:19, Fig wrote:

Much better.
Very educational and pretty amusing to.
I think he made a small error right at the end though, by using the
old Blackfriars Railway Bridge to illustrate 'unfinished London'?

I agree. *It's also hardly correct to say that Beeching had 'An
incurable phobia of trains'.

His phobia was of railways that hardly had any trains.

*thread drift*

How on earth did BR and Beeching justify closing the assorted London
railways that were axed?

While I know London's population was in decline at the time, it never
went much below seven million - so something like Finsbury Park to
Edgware via Highgate should hardly have been bracketed along with the
many "slow route from nowhere-in-Wales to nowhere-in-Wales via nowhere-
in-England"-type cuts that were rightly made.

Were any of the London closures that actually happened really Beeching's?
I know he had it in for the North London but it didn't close, quite the
contrary in the long run. The Ally Pally passenger service went in 1956.
Were even Palace Gates and Belmont Beeching closures? The Turkey St loop
reopened in his time.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message ,
writes

Were even Palace Gates and Belmont Beeching closures?

Yes, along with the Staines West and Uxbridge Vine Street branches. But
the only major proposal in the London area was to close the NLL which,
of course, never happened.

People often forget that Beeching was not "anti-rail" - in fact, he
promoted the inter-city and freight-liner networks. He was simply very
conscious of the fact that slow, rural branches which had never paid
their way were becoming an enormous drain on resources as car ownership
increased in the 1960s.

--
Paul Terry

On Dec 27, 7:41*pm, Paul Terry wrote:
In message ,
writes

Were even Palace Gates and Belmont Beeching closures?

Yes, along with the Staines West and Uxbridge Vine Street branches. But
the only major proposal in the London area was to close the NLL which,
of course, never happened.

People often forget that Beeching was not "anti-rail" - in fact, he
promoted the inter-city and freight-liner networks. He was simply very
conscious of the fact that slow, rural branches which had never paid
their way were becoming an enormous drain on resources as car ownership
increased in the 1960s.

Yes, I agree with this to some extent - but I don't understand how the
London railways (including the proposal to shut the NLL) or the GCML
fit into the narrative.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 27/12/09 18:24, in article ,
" wrote:

Were any of the London closures that actually happened really Beeching's?
I know he had it in for the North London but it didn't close, quite the
contrary in the long run. The Ally Pally passenger service went in 1956.
Were even Palace Gates and Belmont Beeching closures? The Turkey St loop
reopened in his time.

I think Palace Gates went in '63, so it was probably planned pre-Beeching.
Belmont was later I think '64?

The answer in most cases as to why lines were closed is that people weren't
using them, and this was nothing new, certainly nothing to do with Beeching.
From early in the 20th century many local lines in London had seen drastic
decline due to competition from electric trams, and later buses. I think
it's one of Jim Connor's books which gives some figures, and it's really
dramatic. I can't remember the details now.

Some lines closed during the first war and were never re-opened, Greenwich
Park and what is now Thameslink for example. The London & Blackwall closed
during the General Strike, and never re-opened I believe. Ok, part of the
Greenwich Park branch did re-open later, as did the Snow Hill tunnel, though
not the line from it towards Moorgate did re-open after a very long break,
as did part of the L&B for the DLR. The L&SWR route to Richmond via
Shepherds Bush also never re-opened, doubtless due to competition. Indeed,
the Shepherds Bush area has probably seen more closed stations than anywhere
else in London.

Other lines closed during the second war, West London lost almost all of its
passenger service of course, and Dalston Junction to Poplar never reopened.

Other lines lost out to competition from Underground lines, Stanmore
Village, both Uxbridge lines and Rickmansworth Church Street being obvious
ones.

People didn't want to travel on slow, dirty steam trains when they could use
new fast clean electric trains and trams. Note how few electrified lines
have closed in London. Crystal Palace was one of course, how it kept going
for 18 years after the Palace burned down, I don't know. I think it carried
some coal which may have kept it alive for a while.

Axexandra Palace pretty much died with the rest of the Northern Heights
scheme, and the Palace itself was in serious decline by that time.

Broad Street was probably closed mainly because the land it stood on was too
valuable, though retaining a smaller station there might have been
justified. It was also convenient to be able to divert the existing North
London service when they wanted to re=open the line through Hackney. This
also killed the last of the service via Lea Bridge, the remains of what had
been the North Woolwich - Palace Gates service, when the North Woolwich
branch was joined to the North London.

There's not a great deal more in London that has closed, is there? Elmers
End to Selsdon, again competition, and a few line lines in the East End,
around the docks and Beckton gas works, wartime damage, and then declining
industry.

Lastly, too many lines and stations in London were built in the first place
by the various competing companies.

Very little to do with Beeching at all, and most of it not in his time.

In article ,
(Stephen Furley) wrote:

There's not a great deal more in London that has closed, is there?

South Western services to Wimbledon via East Putney, their first
electrified route.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 28 Dec, 17:49, wrote:
In article ,

(Stephen Furley) wrote:
There's not a great deal more in London that has closed, is there?

South Western services to Wimbledon via East Putney, their first
electrified route.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Yes, I'd forgotten that one; when did it close?

wrote:
On 28 Dec, 17:49, wrote:
In article ,


(Stephen Furley) wrote:
There's not a great deal more in London that has closed, is there?

South Western services to Wimbledon via East Putney, their first
electrified route.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Yes, I'd forgotten that one; when did it close?

4 May 1941 ?
--
David Biddulph

On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:36:19 +0000, Stephen Furley
wrote:







There's not a great deal more in London that has closed, is there? Elmers
End to Selsdon, again competition, and a few line lines in the East End,
around the docks and Beckton gas works, wartime damage, and then declining
industry.



Hammersmith and Chiswick.
Acton Town -South Acton.
Kew Bridge .

And on the extremes of London at the time it hard to imagine that the
District railway stations in the Hounslow area had periods of closure
in the early days due to to lack of patronage.

G Harman

On 28/12/09 19:47, in article ,
" wrote:

On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:36:19 +0000, Stephen Furley
wrote:







There's not a great deal more in London that has closed, is there? Elmers
End to Selsdon, again competition, and a few line lines in the East End,
around the docks and Beckton gas works, wartime damage, and then declining
industry.



Hammersmith and Chiswick.
Acton Town -South Acton.
Kew Bridge .

And on the extremes of London at the time it hard to imagine that the
District railway stations in the Hounslow area had periods of closure
in the early days due to to lack of patronage.

Cricklewood to Acton via Dudding Hill Junction would be another one I'd
forgotten, but again long before Beeching's time, like most of the closures
in London.

Uxbridge Belmont Road would be another one, but only a very short length of
line was closed to divert to the new station. More recently, parts of the
DLR, South of Crossharbour, again due to diversion to a new alignment. and
the last part of the original route into platform 4 at Stratford, though
this was only a few tens of metres.

Gas factory Junction - Bow Junction, via Bow Road. I'm not quite sure why
that one closed. Electrified, but regular passenger service withdrawn
before it could be used.

South of Newbury Park to East of Ilford due to takeover of parts of the GER
lines by the Central line. I don't think there were any stations on that
section.

Getting desperate now, King William Street due to pointing in the wrong
direction and being too small, steep and tightly curved.

Canonbury to Finsbury Park. Service diverted to Moorgate rather than Broad
Street.

A few odd curves, like from the North London into Fenchurch Street.

Bishopsgate high Level, replaced by Liverpool Street.

Ok, it's getting silly now, but it makes the point that hardly anything in
London was closed to passengers by recommendation of Beeching. Most
closures were long before his time, and were made for good reasons.

He did recognise the importance of the London Commuter services, but thought
the fares o them needed to rise.