On 26 Dec, 00:09, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:44:56 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
* Bring back conductors to help people in all sorts of ways and allow
tickets to be sold on the bus all day and night. *(The extra revenue
would surely pay for them.)

What extra revenue? *Practically everyone is using Oyster.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Then why are people always complaining that bendys are free? (Not
that that wasn't necessarily the ultimate intention.)

Anyway, they don't have to be the in the same job as the old
conductors or on all routes or at all times of day. It would be good
to have someone extra on night buses, say, who could, among other
things, sell reasonably-priced cash tickets to new arrivals and people
who can't top up.

On 25 Dec, 23:54, John B wrote:
On Dec 24, 11:44*pm, MIG wrote:

The bendys have at least got as away from the main curse of OPO buses,
which was filing through a narrow space by the driver while the bus
stood at the stop.

The main curse was the time taken for a queue of people to pay and
wait for change, which Oyster and round-money flat-fares have done
away with in London - even on OPO double-deckers...

But there is still the narrow gap and having to wave or bleep
something at the driver, which is surely unnecessary.

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:16:54 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

Then why are people always complaining that bendys are free?

That's a side issue. You don't need a conductor to check that people
have touched in. A driver can do that if people board at the front.
On at the front, off at the rear is the fastest option in a two-door
bus where touching in takes half a second.

Anyway, they don't have to be the in the same job as the old
conductors or on all routes or at all times of day. It would be good
to have someone extra on night buses, say, who could, among other
things, sell reasonably-priced cash tickets to new arrivals and people
who can't top up.

This may well be worthwhile as a security measure if nothing else,
though would people be willing to see night bus fares increased above
daytime ones as they used to be, so this could be affordable?

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:17:49 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

But there is still the narrow gap and having to wave or bleep
something at the driver, which is surely unnecessary.

The gap is wide enough for people to get through if nobody stands
there. This can be avoided by going for a bigger bus with more
dedicated standing room downstairs.

Revenue protection is clearly proving to be necessary, given the
reputation of "uncle Ken's free buses". But then the UK never did,
and probably never will, do penalty fares correctly[1].

[1] Forget prosecuting people, heavy-handedness or messing around.
Just set the PF and enforcement to be at the level where the PF income
from ticketless travellers, having deducted the cost of enforcement,
equals (or to be safe slightly exceeds) the income that was lost by
the fact that they didn't pay the proper fare. Then stop worrying
about them, because they don't lose you money.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Dec 26, 11:13*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:17:49 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
But there is still the narrow gap and having to wave or bleep
something at the driver, which is surely unnecessary.

The gap is wide enough for people to get through if nobody stands
there. *This can be avoided by going for a bigger bus with more
dedicated standing room downstairs.

Revenue protection is clearly proving to be necessary, given the
reputation of "uncle Ken's free buses". *But then the UK never did,
and probably never will, do penalty fares correctly[1].

I'm not sure this is true, except for highly depressing, party-
political values of "necessary". The actual TfL studies show that
evasion isn't significantly higher on bendies than regular buses -
unfortunately, the urban myth of 'uncle Ken's free buses' has obscured
the reality.

(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 26 Dec, 23:09, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:16:54 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
Then why are people always complaining that bendys are free?

That's a side issue. *You don't need a conductor to check that people
have touched in. *A driver can do that if people board at the front.
On at the front, off at the rear is the fastest option in a two-door
bus where touching in takes half a second.

Anyway, they don't have to be the in the same job as the old
conductors or on all routes or at all times of day. *It would be good
to have someone extra on night buses, say, who could, among other
things, sell reasonably-priced cash tickets to new arrivals and people
who can't top up.

This may well be worthwhile as a security measure if nothing else,
though would people be willing to see night bus fares increased above
daytime ones as they used to be, so this could be affordable?

All I am saying, as Paul Corfield kind of repeated in a different
branch, is that there should be a sensible consideration of what is
needed in a bus that is suitable for the central London. I don't
think it's a bendy or a Routemaster and I have no time for any party
political associations with bus designs. I also see a need for better
staffing in approporiate roles. I foolishly mentioned the word
"conductors" as an aside, and that's all anyone wants to talk about.

It's very strange how, in the meantime, various people seem to be
claiming that no time is lost by filing past the driver on double
deckers, despite dwell time being one of the main claimed advantages
of bendys. Even less justification for them then.

John B wrote:

(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

Talking of people not touching in, TfL are changing the Conditions of
Carriage from 2nd January such that *ALL* Oyster holders *MUST* touch in
(and out where appropriate) or be liable to a Penalty Fare, even if they
have a valid Season Ticket loaded onto their Oyster!

New Conditions of Carriage can be found at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/899.aspx and the relevant
conditions are 6.6.1 for LU, Overground and National Rail, and 6.6.7 for
Buses.

Cheers,

Barry

On Dec 28, 4:28*pm, Barry Salter wrote:
John B wrote:
(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

Talking of people not touching in, TfL are changing the Conditions of
Carriage from 2nd January such that *ALL* Oyster holders *MUST* touch in
(and out where appropriate) or be liable to a Penalty Fare, even if they
have a valid Season Ticket loaded onto their Oyster!

New Conditions of Carriage can be found at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/899.aspx and the relevant
conditions are 6.6.1 for LU, Overground and National Rail, and 6.6.7 for
Buses.

....although interestingly, that strongly implies (to the extent that
any court would support) that Travelcard holders will only be liable
to a penalty fare if they fail to touch in on buses.

While 6.6.1 says that Travelcard holders are supposed to touch in on
LU/LO/NR, it doesn't specify any sanctions for people who don't -
whereas 6.6.4 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard holders who
don't use OEPs on NR, 6.6.7 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard
holders who don't touch in on buses, and 6.7.3 mentions explicit
sanctions for PAYG users who don't touch in on LU/LO/DLR.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

In message of Mon, 28 Dec 2009
16:28:37 in uk.transport.london, Barry Salter
writes
John B wrote:

(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

Talking of people not touching in, TfL are changing the Conditions of
Carriage from 2nd January such that *ALL* Oyster holders *MUST* touch
in (and out where appropriate) or be liable to a Penalty Fare, even if
they have a valid Season Ticket loaded onto their Oyster!

New Conditions of Carriage can be found at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/terms
andconditions/899.aspx and the relevant conditions are 6.6.1 for LU,
Overground and National Rail, and 6.6.7 for Buses.

How do people find out how CoC versions differs?
I read my first version carefully. I don't feel like doing it again.
I might suggest pdftotext, but found it shuffles http://www.tfl.gov.uk/
assets/livetravelnews/realtime/tube/track-closures.pdf
[Later: pdftotext -layout does a reasonable job. I hope to post a
comparison of the 2010/01/02 and November 2009 versions.]

I note it continues to say "4.5. ... in our bus and Underground
stations you must not: ... take flash photographs and/or use a tripod or
other camera support equipment"

I take that as permission to take non-flash photographs without camera
support equipment. My showing the CoC on my phone/camera/computer is
usually enough to deal with staff who challenge: "You need permission to
take photos on the Underground." I suppose I should complain.
--
Walter Briscoe

On Dec 28, 5:17*pm, John B wrote:
On Dec 28, 4:28*pm, Barry Salter wrote:

John B wrote:
(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

Talking of people not touching in, TfL are changing the Conditions of
Carriage from 2nd January such that *ALL* Oyster holders *MUST* touch in
(and out where appropriate) or be liable to a Penalty Fare, even if they
have a valid Season Ticket loaded onto their Oyster!

New Conditions of Carriage can be found at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/899.aspx and the relevant
conditions are 6.6.1 for LU, Overground and National Rail, and 6.6.7 for
Buses.

...although interestingly, that strongly implies (to the extent that
any court would support) that Travelcard holders will only be liable
to a penalty fare if they fail to touch in on buses.

While 6.6.1 says that Travelcard holders are supposed to touch in on
LU/LO/NR, it doesn't specify any sanctions for people who don't -
whereas 6.6.4 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard holders who
don't use OEPs on NR, 6.6.7 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard
holders who don't touch in on buses, and 6.7.3 mentions explicit
sanctions for PAYG users who don't touch in on LU/LO/DLR.


I notice that the wording is suitably obscure about the use of OEP on
the existing NR routes which accept PAYG. First section 6.6.4 says
that you MUST have an OEP if travelling outside your travelcard
validity on NR, but then says that you SHOULD have an OEP if using one
of the existing PAYG routes (those mentioned in section A1).

I had understood that if, for example, I wished to travel to Watford
Junction on a London Midland service, I wouldn't need an OEP, as the
PAYG rules to Watford Junction would not be changing from the current
situation.