Barry Salter wrote:

(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

Talking of people not touching in, TfL are changing the Conditions of
Carriage from 2nd January such that *ALL* Oyster holders *MUST* touch in
(and out where appropriate) or be liable to a Penalty Fare, even if they
have a valid Season Ticket loaded onto their Oyster!

That is going to be a ****ing disaster at some stations (DLR, Waterloo &
City, Stratford) - and what are people supposed to do if they start their
journey on a paper ticket to their season validity?

On 28 Dec, 17:17, John B wrote:
On Dec 28, 4:28*pm, Barry Salter wrote:

John B wrote:
(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

Talking of people not touching in, TfL are changing the Conditions of
Carriage from 2nd January such that *ALL* Oyster holders *MUST* touch in
(and out where appropriate) or be liable to a Penalty Fare, even if they
have a valid Season Ticket loaded onto their Oyster!

New Conditions of Carriage can be found at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/899.aspx and the relevant
conditions are 6.6.1 for LU, Overground and National Rail, and 6.6.7 for
Buses.

...although interestingly, that strongly implies (to the extent that
any court would support) that Travelcard holders will only be liable
to a penalty fare if they fail to touch in on buses.

While 6.6.1 says that Travelcard holders are supposed to touch in on
LU/LO/NR, it doesn't specify any sanctions for people who don't -
whereas 6.6.4 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard holders who
don't use OEPs on NR, 6.6.7 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard
holders who don't touch in on buses, and 6.7.3 mentions explicit
sanctions for PAYG users who don't touch in on LU/LO/DLR.

Which is particularly bonkers, since a bus journey can't exactly be
extended beyond zones.

Again, despite my deep suspicion of everything Oyster, I don't believe
this is going to be used for PF purposes. I am sure that it's just an
attempt to get people into the habit of touching all the time, given
all the potential problems (which can't all be solved anyway). It's
one of those "terms and conditions" things that they can fall back on
if someone does try something on but there's no other technical
offence they can get them on.

I don't believe they are going to reprogram all the bus inspector
machines not to give a green light to valid travelcards. What kind of
entry/exit gets registered with a bus touch anyway?

PS Or is this just to prepare for debendification? It's normal to
touch a travelcard in front of a straight bus driver who has the
responsibility of checking that you've got a valid ticket.

On 29 Dec, 08:47, MIG wrote:
On 28 Dec, 17:17, John B wrote:



On Dec 28, 4:28*pm, Barry Salter wrote:

John B wrote:
(CUE: pointless anecdotes of "I got on the 29 and only saw 4 people
touching in". Well, yes - the others have Travelcards or bus passes).

Talking of people not touching in, TfL are changing the Conditions of
Carriage from 2nd January such that *ALL* Oyster holders *MUST* touch in
(and out where appropriate) or be liable to a Penalty Fare, even if they
have a valid Season Ticket loaded onto their Oyster!

New Conditions of Carriage can be found at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/899.aspx and the relevant
conditions are 6.6.1 for LU, Overground and National Rail, and 6.6.7 for
Buses.

...although interestingly, that strongly implies (to the extent that
any court would support) that Travelcard holders will only be liable
to a penalty fare if they fail to touch in on buses.

While 6.6.1 says that Travelcard holders are supposed to touch in on
LU/LO/NR, it doesn't specify any sanctions for people who don't -
whereas 6.6.4 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard holders who
don't use OEPs on NR, 6.6.7 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard
holders who don't touch in on buses, and 6.7.3 mentions explicit
sanctions for PAYG users who don't touch in on LU/LO/DLR.

Which is particularly bonkers, since a bus journey can't exactly be
extended beyond zones.


It is possible to do so on routes 84 & 614.

On 2009-12-29, Matthew Dickinson wrote:
On 29 Dec, 08:47, MIG wrote:

While 6.6.1 says that Travelcard holders are supposed to touch in on
LU/LO/NR, it doesn't specify any sanctions for people who don't -
whereas 6.6.4 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard holders who
don't use OEPs on NR, 6.6.7 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard
holders who don't touch in on buses, and 6.7.3 mentions explicit
sanctions for PAYG users who don't touch in on LU/LO/DLR.

Which is particularly bonkers, since a bus journey can't exactly be
extended beyond zones.


It is possible to do so on routes 84 & 614.

But they do not accept Oyster for journeys beyond the specified points,
so this is totally irrelevant.

E.

On 29 Dec, 13:19, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 00:47:24 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
Which is particularly bonkers, since a bus journey can't exactly be
extended beyond zones.

On a few routes it is possible but these are not TfL routes just LLSA
[1] services.

Again, despite my deep suspicion of everything Oyster, I don't believe
this is going to be used for PF purposes. *I am sure that it's just an
attempt to get people into the habit of touching all the time, given
all the potential problems (which can't all be solved anyway). *It's
one of those "terms and conditions" things that they can fall back on
if someone does try something on but there's no other technical
offence they can get them on.

I understand that the level of expected compliance is going to be ramped
up over a number of months. This gives people time to get used to
touching in even if they have Travelcards. *Notices appeared a few
months ago giving advance warning that everyone on staff passes had to
touch in on routes with remote readers. *I touch in anyway on bendies
even though it's not strictly necessary. *Not sure what is proposed for
holders of Freedom Passes.

The use of PFs goes well beyond what Parliament agreed to in the first
place, in my opinion, but if they are going to PF people who have paid
their fare and can prove that they have and who have no means, while
on the bus, of travelling beyond their validity, they will definitely
end up in court, and I will be among lynch mob outside.

But I can't believe that they really intend to do anything so
ridiculous.


I don't believe they are going to reprogram all the bus inspector
machines not to give a green light to valid travelcards. *What kind of
entry/exit gets registered with a bus touch anyway?

Clearly only an entry is registered but if people change to another mode
or another bus as part of an overall journey then patterns of usage can
be derived if the timings for validation look OK relative to journey /
interchange time.

PS Or is this just to prepare for debendification? *It's normal to
touch a travelcard in front of a straight bus driver who has the
responsibility of checking that you've got a valid ticket.

I don't see how. Once a route goes to double deck then that's it -
everyone on at the front and everyone touches in. *

That's what I said. Is this change simply in recognition of the fact
that with debendification, there will not be a situation in which
anyone gets on a bus with no need to either touch or show something to
the driver? That would make sense.

Planning to PF everyone with a travelcard who hasn't carried out a
separate arbitrary action would, I think, be illegal. It would be
purely a trap to earn them extra cash, and would protect no revenue
whatsoever since it would only apply to people who could prove that
they had paid the correct fare. They can't justify inventing rules
purely for the purpose of fining people for breaking the rules.

Not sure what's going
to happy on the NBFL which will apparently allow boarding and alighting
through all doors (like a rigid bendy)!?

[1] London Local Service Agreement (former section 3/2 routes).

--
Paul C

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

Notices appeared a few
months ago giving advance warning that everyone on staff passes had to
touch in on routes with remote readers. I touch in anyway on bendies
even though it's not strictly necessary. Not sure what is proposed for
holders of Freedom Passes.

And what about those of us on (ITSO) Bus Passes?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:58:31 -0600,
wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

Notices appeared a few
months ago giving advance warning that everyone on staff passes had
to touch in on routes with remote readers. I touch in anyway on
bendies even though it's not strictly necessary. Not sure what is
proposed for holders of Freedom Passes.

And what about those of us on (ITSO) Bus Passes?

Oh you'll all be shot by the newly installed automatic weapons ;-)

Is that compatible with ITSO on Oyster?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

MIG wrote

...although interestingly, that strongly implies (to the extent that
any court would support) that Travelcard holders will only be liable
to a penalty fare if they fail to touch in on buses.

While 6.6.1 says that Travelcard holders are supposed to touch in on
LU/LO/NR, it doesn't specify any sanctions for people who don't -
whereas 6.6.4 mentions explicit sanctions for Travelcard holders who
don't use OEPs on NR, 6.6.7 mentions explicit sanctions for
Travelcard
holders who don't touch in on buses, and 6.7.3 mentions explicit
sanctions for PAYG users who don't touch in on LU/LO/DLR.

.. Which is particularly bonkers, since a bus journey can't exactly be
.. extended beyond zones.

.. Again, despite my deep suspicion of everything Oyster, I don't
believe
this is going to be used for PF purposes. I am sure that it's just an
attempt to get people into the habit of touching all the time, given
all the potential problems (which can't all be solved anyway). It's
one of those "terms and conditions" things that they can fall back on
if someone does try something on but there's no other technical
offence they can get them on.

.. I don't believe they are going to reprogram all the bus inspector
machines not to give a green light to valid travelcards. What kind of
entry/exit gets registered with a bus touch anyway?

Wearing my "think of a reason" hat, requiring touch-in on buses will
ensure the /forgetful/ won't travel free with an expired season ticket.

Other parts of the conditions of carriage remind me of Sir Alan Herbert
(who, in _Uncommon Law_ invented the negotiable cow).

12.1.3. You must not bring with you anything that:
• is more than 2 metres long

14.1. You can bring an assistance dog with you without charge. You can
also take with you without charge any other dog or inoffensive animal,
unless there is a good reason [...]

So parrots and other birds are OK if not too large.

--
Mike D

In article 01ca88cb$cc175420$LocalHost@default, (Michael
R N Dolbear) wrote:

Other parts of the conditions of carriage remind me of Sir Alan Herbert
(who, in _Uncommon Law_ invented the negotiable cow).

12.1.3. You must not bring with you anything that:
• is more than 2 metres long

14.1. You can bring an assistance dog with you without charge. You can
also take with you without charge any other dog or inoffensive animal,
unless there is a good reason [...]

So parrots and other birds are OK if not too large.

Is a giraffe more than 2 metres _long?_

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:
In article 01ca88cb$cc175420$LocalHost@default,
(Michael
R N Dolbear) wrote:

Other parts of the conditions of carriage remind me of Sir Alan
Herbert
(who, in _Uncommon Law_ invented the negotiable cow).

12.1.3. You must not bring with you anything that:
• is more than 2 metres long

14.1. You can bring an assistance dog with you without charge. You
can
also take with you without charge any other dog or inoffensive
animal,
unless there is a good reason [...]

So parrots and other birds are OK if not too large.

Is a giraffe more than 2 metres _long?_

Dunno. But if you do take one you shouldn't leave it on the train.