On Dec 31, 4:43*pm, MIG wrote:
On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:

Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says

"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal. *There is no way that it could
comply with the penalty fare rules.

How d'you figure that?

In order to avoid being charged a PF in a PF area, you must on demand
"produce a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by
that train", subject to the usual exceptions (no facilities to buy,
inadequate notices, a notice or railway staff said you could travel).

For Oyster cards that have Travelcards loaded, Oyster PAYG will not be
valid on National Rail services outside your Travelcard zones unless
you also have an IEP loaded. This means that, if you're gripped
outside your Travelcard zones and don't have an IEP, then you don't
have a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by that
train, so you're eligible for a PF.

It's exactly as if you were to try and travel outside your Travelcard
zones on Oyster on NR today (on one of the non-inter-available routes)
- the amount of PAYG balance on your card is irrelevant, and you are
thoroughly eligible for a PF, because Oyster PAYG is not a valid means
of payment.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 31 Dec, 17:36, John B wrote:
On Dec 31, 4:43*pm, MIG wrote:





On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:

Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says

"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal. *There is no way that it could
comply with the penalty fare rules.

How d'you figure that?

In order to avoid being charged a PF in a PF area, you must on demand
"produce a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by
that train", subject to the usual exceptions (no facilities to buy,
inadequate notices, a notice or railway staff said you could travel).

For Oyster cards that have Travelcards loaded, Oyster PAYG will not be
valid on National Rail services outside your Travelcard zones unless
you also have an IEP loaded. This means that, if you're gripped
outside your Travelcard zones and don't have an IEP, then you don't
have a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by that
train, so you're eligible for a PF.

It's exactly as if you were to try and travel outside your Travelcard
zones on Oyster on NR today (on one of the non-inter-available routes)
- the amount of PAYG balance on your card is irrelevant, and you are
thoroughly eligible for a PF, because Oyster PAYG is not a valid means
of payment.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

But in the relevant context, it will be valid means of payment. In
fact, it's the only means of payment you'd be able to use in the
circumstances. An OEP isn't a means of payment. Will the exit
barrier refuse to charge the card if it hasn't got an OEP on it at the
end of an ungripped journey?

But more importantly, how is the warning displayed when you start your
journey? That's going to be the main issue. It's not enough having
the information on the Web or discussed in forums.

Under Penalty Fares, the TfL site currently only mentions not having
touched in for liability.

On 31 Dec 2009, 21:48, MIG wrote:
On 31 Dec, 17:36, John B wrote:





On Dec 31, 4:43*pm, MIG wrote:

On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:

Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says

"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal. *There is no way that it could
comply with the penalty fare rules.

How d'you figure that?

In order to avoid being charged a PF in a PF area, you must on demand
"produce a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by
that train", subject to the usual exceptions (no facilities to buy,
inadequate notices, a notice or railway staff said you could travel).

For Oyster cards that have Travelcards loaded, Oyster PAYG will not be
valid on National Rail services outside your Travelcard zones unless
you also have an IEP loaded. This means that, if you're gripped
outside your Travelcard zones and don't have an IEP, then you don't
have a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by that
train, so you're eligible for a PF.

It's exactly as if you were to try and travel outside your Travelcard
zones on Oyster on NR today (on one of the non-inter-available routes)
- the amount of PAYG balance on your card is irrelevant, and you are
thoroughly eligible for a PF, because Oyster PAYG is not a valid means
of payment.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

But in the relevant context, it will be valid means of payment. *In
fact, it's the only means of payment you'd be able to use in the
circumstances. *An OEP isn't a means of payment. *Will the exit
barrier refuse to charge the card if it hasn't got an OEP on it at the
end of an ungripped journey?

But more importantly, how is the warning displayed when you start your
journey? *That's going to be the main issue. *It's not enough having
the information on the Web or discussed in forums.

Under Penalty Fares, the TfL site currently only mentions not having
touched in for liability.

A FoI request to TfL has revealed some more information about OEPs.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...ension_permits

Of interest is a full list of National Rail self-service machines
where PAYG can be added.

The added stations can be used to pick up online purchases and auto-
topup from the 13th January.

On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 16:08:22 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson wrote:

A FoI request to TfL has revealed some more information about OEPs.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...ension_permits

Thanks for this.

One of the things that strikes me is that it states that OEPs will be
required for *all* NR routes, i.e. there is no exception for ones on
which PAYG was valid in 2009. It gives the specific example of
travelling to Harrow & Wealdstone on a Z1-2 Travelcard using London
Midland (as a journey where an OEP is required). This contradicts what
has been previously stated in this group...

In article
,
(Matthew Dickinson) wrote:

On 31 Dec 2009, 21:48, MIG wrote:
On 31 Dec, 17:36, John B wrote:

On Dec 31, 4:43*pm, MIG wrote:

On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:

Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster
on the rails & the last para here
-http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says
"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside
your zones, but still within London by national rail, you will
now be required to set an Oyster Extension Permit before the
start of your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you
do not do this, you will liable for a penalty fare of £20,
even if you have ample credit on your card.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal. *There is no way that it
could comply with the penalty fare rules.

How d'you figure that?

In order to avoid being charged a PF in a PF area, you must on
demand "produce a ticket or other authority authorising your
travelling by that train", subject to the usual exceptions (no
facilities to buy, inadequate notices, a notice or railway staff
said you could travel).

For Oyster cards that have Travelcards loaded, Oyster PAYG will not
be valid on National Rail services outside your Travelcard zones
unless you also have an IEP loaded. This means that, if you're
gripped outside your Travelcard zones and don't have an IEP, then
you don't have a ticket or other authority authorising your
travelling by that train, so you're eligible for a PF.

It's exactly as if you were to try and travel outside your
Travelcard zones on Oyster on NR today (on one of the
non-inter-available routes) - the amount of PAYG balance on your
card is irrelevant, and you are thoroughly eligible for a PF,
because Oyster PAYG is not a valid means of payment.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

But in the relevant context, it will be valid means of payment. In
fact, it's the only means of payment you'd be able to use in the
circumstances. *An OEP isn't a means of payment. *Will the exit
barrier refuse to charge the card if it hasn't got an OEP on it at the
end of an ungripped journey?

But more importantly, how is the warning displayed when you start your
journey? *That's going to be the main issue. *It's not enough having
the information on the Web or discussed in forums.

Under Penalty Fares, the TfL site currently only mentions not having
touched in for liability.

A FoI request to TfL has revealed some more information about OEPs.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...ension_permits

Of interest is a full list of National Rail self-service machines
where PAYG can be added.

The added stations can be used to pick up online purchases and auto-
topup from the 13th January.

The OEP document highlights a nightmare possibility with OEPs that hadn't
previously occurred to me:

"Examples
TICKET HELD FROM TO OEP REQUIRED?
....
Zones 1-4 GOODGE STREET HARROW & WEALDSTONE YES - if using TOC
....
Does it apply to LU journeys?
No. There is no change to the arrangements for use of PAYG on LU or other
TfL services, but an OEP could apply if the customer is using a TOC
service serving one of our stations."

So, here am I travelling out from Zone 1 to Harrow and Wealdstone which is
in Zone 5. I change trains somewhere North of Queen's Park and want to
take the first train which could be a Bakerloo or NR train. Only on the
latter do I need and OEP!

Or does this only apply to LM and SN and not to LO and would therefore
only be a problem if I changed at Wembley Central (at the limited times
when that is possible to get to Harrow and Wealdstone)?

It's getting nearly as stupid as the Cambridgeshire Guided Busway
ticketing arrangements where you have to buy an operator-specific ticket
from a machine at a bus stop before boarding without knowing for sure
which operator's bus will arrive first.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 19:17:55 -0600,
wrote:

A FoI request to TfL has revealed some more information about OEPs.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...ension_permits

Of interest is a full list of National Rail self-service machines
where PAYG can be added.

The added stations can be used to pick up online purchases and auto-
topup from the 13th January.

The OEP document highlights a nightmare possibility with OEPs that hadn't
previously occurred to me:

"Examples
TICKET HELD FROM TO OEP REQUIRED?
...
Zones 1-4 GOODGE STREET HARROW & WEALDSTONE YES - if using TOC
...
Does it apply to LU journeys?
No. There is no change to the arrangements for use of PAYG on LU or other
TfL services, but an OEP could apply if the customer is using a TOC
service serving one of our stations."

So, here am I travelling out from Zone 1 to Harrow and Wealdstone which is
in Zone 5. I change trains somewhere North of Queen's Park and want to
take the first train which could be a Bakerloo or NR train. Only on the
latter do I need and OEP!

Or does this only apply to LM and SN and not to LO and would therefore
only be a problem if I changed at Wembley Central (at the limited times
when that is possible to get to Harrow and Wealdstone)?

It's getting nearly as stupid as the Cambridgeshire Guided Busway
ticketing arrangements where you have to buy an operator-specific ticket
from a machine at a bus stop before boarding without knowing for sure
which operator's bus will arrive first.

It's not that bad... if you get an OEP but end up travelling entirely
on services that don't require an OEP, you haven't lost anything
(except the time you spent queueing and getting the OEP).

On 3 Jan, 01:37, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 19:17:55 -0600,
wrote:





A FoI request to TfL has revealed some more information about OEPs.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...ension_permits

Of interest is a full list of National Rail self-service machines
where PAYG can be added.

The added stations can be used to pick up online purchases and auto-
topup from the 13th January.

The OEP document highlights a nightmare possibility with OEPs that hadn't
previously occurred to me:

"Examples
TICKET HELD * FROM * * * * * *TO * * * * * * * * * *OEP REQUIRED?
...
Zones 1-4 * * GOODGE STREET * HARROW & WEALDSTONE * YES - if using TOC
...
Does it apply to LU journeys?
No. There is no change to the arrangements for use of PAYG on LU or other
TfL services, but an OEP could apply if the customer is using a TOC
service serving one of our stations."

So, here am I travelling out from Zone 1 to Harrow and Wealdstone which is
in Zone 5. I change trains somewhere North of Queen's Park and want to
take the first train which could be a Bakerloo or NR train. Only on the
latter do I need and OEP!

Or does this only apply to LM and SN and not to LO and would therefore
only be a problem if I changed at Wembley Central (at the limited times
when that is possible to get to Harrow and Wealdstone)?

It's getting nearly as stupid as the Cambridgeshire Guided Busway
ticketing arrangements where you have to buy an operator-specific ticket
from a machine at a bus stop before boarding without knowing for sure
which operator's bus will arrive first.

It's not that bad... if you get an OEP but end up travelling entirely
on services that don't require an OEP, you haven't lost anything
(except the time you spent queueing and getting the OEP).-

And anyway, I think it must only apply if using LM or SN, in which
case one won't often have the choice of "what turns up first".

But it does show the complete nonsense of it, because surely the issue
is not which train you travel in, but whether you are potentially
travelling to an unbarriered NR station without needing to pass
through any barrier till the destination?

If any such stations are reachable via the Bakerloo, shouldn't one
need an OEP to travel on the Bakerloo with a travelcard?

Shouldn't you also have one if you travel on the Central with a
travelcard, because you can't prove you don't intend to change at
Stratford? (And plenty of other examples.)

On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 18:36:01 -0800 (PST), MIG wrote:

And anyway, I think it must only apply if using LM or SN, in which
case one won't often have the choice of "what turns up first".

But it does show the complete nonsense of it, because surely the issue
is not which train you travel in, but whether you are potentially
travelling to an unbarriered NR station without needing to pass
through any barrier till the destination?

The issue *is* which train you travel in, because TfL are prepared to
take the revenue risk that you might not touch out, and the TOCs
aren't.

On 3 Jan, 01:17, wrote:
In article
,





(Matthew Dickinson) wrote:
On 31 Dec 2009, 21:48, MIG wrote:
On 31 Dec, 17:36, John B wrote:

On Dec 31, 4:43*pm, MIG wrote:

On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:

Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster
on the rails & the last para here
-http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says
"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside
your zones, but still within London by national rail, you will
now be required to set an Oyster Extension Permit before the
start of your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you
do not do this, you will liable for a penalty fare of £20,
even if you have ample credit on your card.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal. *There is no way that it
could comply with the penalty fare rules.

How d'you figure that?

In order to avoid being charged a PF in a PF area, you must on
demand "produce a ticket or other authority authorising your
travelling by that train", subject to the usual exceptions (no
facilities to buy, inadequate notices, a notice or railway staff
said you could travel).

For Oyster cards that have Travelcards loaded, Oyster PAYG will not
be valid on National Rail services outside your Travelcard zones
unless you also have an IEP loaded. This means that, if you're
gripped outside your Travelcard zones and don't have an IEP, then
you don't have a ticket or other authority authorising your
travelling by that train, so you're eligible for a PF.

It's exactly as if you were to try and travel outside your
Travelcard zones on Oyster on NR today (on one of the
non-inter-available routes) - the amount of PAYG balance on your
card is irrelevant, and you are thoroughly eligible for a PF,
because Oyster PAYG is not a valid means of payment.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

But in the relevant context, it will be valid means of payment. In
fact, it's the only means of payment you'd be able to use in the
circumstances. *An OEP isn't a means of payment. *Will the exit
barrier refuse to charge the card if it hasn't got an OEP on it at the
end of an ungripped journey?

But more importantly, how is the warning displayed when you start your
journey? *That's going to be the main issue. *It's not enough having
the information on the Web or discussed in forums.

Under Penalty Fares, the TfL site currently only mentions not having
touched in for liability.

A FoI request to TfL has revealed some more information about OEPs.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...ension_permits

Of interest is a full list of National Rail self-service machines
where PAYG can be added.

The added stations can be used to pick up online purchases and auto-
topup from the 13th January.

The OEP document highlights a nightmare possibility with OEPs that hadn't
previously occurred to me:

"Examples
TICKET HELD * FROM * * * * * *TO * * * * * * * * * *OEP REQUIRED?
...
Zones 1-4 * * GOODGE STREET * HARROW & WEALDSTONE * YES - if using TOC
...
Does it apply to LU journeys?
No. There is no change to the arrangements for use of PAYG on LU or other
TfL services, but an OEP could apply if the customer is using a TOC
service serving one of our stations."

So, here am I travelling out from Zone 1 to Harrow and Wealdstone which is
in Zone 5. I change trains somewhere North of Queen's Park and want to
take the first train which could be a Bakerloo or NR train. Only on the
latter do I need and OEP!

Or does this only apply to LM and SN and not to LO and would therefore
only be a problem if I changed at Wembley Central (at the limited times
when that is possible to get to Harrow and Wealdstone)?

Here's another bit from the PAYG (rather than OEP) briefing

"Passengers with a Travelcard on their Oyster card who intend to use
pay as you go to travel on National Rail services (in London) outside
the zones covered by their Travelcard will need to set an Oyster
Extension Permit on their card before travelling. They are not needed
for journeys made solely on London Overground or other TfL services."

So it's not for LO. But in finding that, I also notice

"An Oyster Extension Permit is only needed when a journey is started
within the zones covered by a Travelcard at a LU/London Overground or
DLR station and involves travel by National Rail beyond its validity."

So it doesn't apply if you start within your zones at an NR station.
Does that mean that touching in with a travelcard, within zones, at an
NR station automatically sets an OEP?

If not, the journey might or might not be via an LU station on the
way, but if it was, say, via Farringdon, you'd have to break the
journey in order to set the OEP and maybe pay extra.

Jeez what a mess. The whole thing gets less and less clear every day.

On 3 Jan, 00:08, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
On 31 Dec 2009, 21:48, MIG wrote:





On 31 Dec, 17:36, John B wrote:

On Dec 31, 4:43*pm, MIG wrote:

On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:

Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says

"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal. *There is no way that it could
comply with the penalty fare rules.

How d'you figure that?

In order to avoid being charged a PF in a PF area, you must on demand
"produce a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by
that train", subject to the usual exceptions (no facilities to buy,
inadequate notices, a notice or railway staff said you could travel).

For Oyster cards that have Travelcards loaded, Oyster PAYG will not be
valid on National Rail services outside your Travelcard zones unless
you also have an IEP loaded. This means that, if you're gripped
outside your Travelcard zones and don't have an IEP, then you don't
have a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by that
train, so you're eligible for a PF.

It's exactly as if you were to try and travel outside your Travelcard
zones on Oyster on NR today (on one of the non-inter-available routes)
- the amount of PAYG balance on your card is irrelevant, and you are
thoroughly eligible for a PF, because Oyster PAYG is not a valid means
of payment.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

But in the relevant context, it will be valid means of payment. *In
fact, it's the only means of payment you'd be able to use in the
circumstances. *An OEP isn't a means of payment. *Will the exit
barrier refuse to charge the card if it hasn't got an OEP on it at the
end of an ungripped journey?
But more importantly, how is the warning displayed when you start your
journey? *That's going to be the main issue. *It's not enough having
the information on the Web or discussed in forums.

Under Penalty Fares, the TfL site currently only mentions not having
touched in for liability.

A FoI request to TfL has revealed some more information about OEPs.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...ension_permits

Of interest is a full list of National Rail self-service machines
where PAYG can be added.

The added stations can be used to pick up online purchases and auto-
topup from the 13th January.

Look at this bit

"If the customer completes their journey within the zones covered by
their season ticket, the OEP will remain on their card. If requested,
you must remove the OEP from their Oyster card to make sure they do
not incur an incomplete journey whilst travelling within the zones
covered by their season ticket."

So are they saying that if you get an OEP and then don't travel out of
your zones, you get an incomplete journey?

As for penalty fares, I think that the guilty-till-proven-innocent
implication of penalty fares has now been stretched so far beyond what
Parliament ever agreed to, that the court cases that will result from
this could lead to a whole lot of under-the-radar PF schemes elsewhere
having to be abandoned. I think that would be a Good Thing, but some
may disagree.