On 3 Jan, 12:38, MIG wrote:
On 3 Jan, 12:19, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:





On 3 Jan, 11:52, MIG wrote:

On 3 Jan, 11:23, trainmanUK wrote:

....

In another thread, someone posted the result of an FOI request, which
included a TfL staff briefing, which included this statement.

"An Oyster Extension Permit is only needed when a journey is started
within the zones covered by a Travelcard at a LU/London Overground or
DLR station and involves travel by National Rail beyond its validity."

Seehttp://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/23222/response/62007/attach/4/P....

It seems bonkers to me too, but has it ever been suggested that NR
stations can issue OEPs?- Hide quoted text -

Of course as this is a tfl staff briefing document this would be
correct for all the people receiving said document. They are only
briefing their own staff not National Rail.

What they are also saying by implicaton is if your journey is ending
outside your zones but terminates at a LU/LO station then you dont
need an OEP.

I would like to know what the charge will be if you fail to get an
OEP. *Will it be a penalty fare (about £50) !!

If they try that on, cue high profile court cases, the end of Oyster
and the end of penalty fare schemes. *TfL's stretching of the rules
will lift the lid on dodgy practices and end up with a backlash
abolishing some less dodgy ones along with them, a bit like MPs'
expenses.

It would be good if fare-evaders were prosecuted instead of being let
off with a PF, and honest travellers weren't fair game for extra cash
for breaking an arbitrary rule which has no other purpose than to get
extra cash out of people for breaking the rule. *(TfL is becoming
worse than Ryanair on this.)

I suspect that because there are many National Rail stations where it
is not possible to set an OEP they cannot enforce penalty fares from
these stations.and as this would be even more confuriog, the TOCs can
only insist on OEPs on journeys starting from TfL stations.

But there's still that concept of "journey" that isn't defined. *I am
still grappling.

Let's say I live near Stratford and have a zone 1 - 3 season ticket
and want to go to Hadley Wood (zone 6).

Wherever I get on, if it's the weekend and I change at Kings Cross,
then presumably, even if I think my journey started at Stratford, the
journey that counts for the gripper starts at Kings Cross NR and
doesn't need an OEP, or does it?

During the week, if I start at Stratford and go via Moorgate (no
touching on the way) I should have an OEP because I start at an LU
station.

But if I touch in at Maryland (NR) and go via Stratford and Moorgate
(no touching) I don't need an OEP?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes you will need an OEP. The confusion is coming because someone is
quoting from a TFL document for TFL staff which will be correct for
them. It still applies that you will need an OEP if your journey
starts on National Rail in the zones and ends on National Rail outside
the zones. The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching out)

On Jan 3, 12:51*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
wrote:
If you register the Gold Card on your Oyster Card you do get a
railcard discount on the extension fare, surely?

You cannot register Gold Cards or Network Cards onto Oyster cards

And this, to my mind, is the biggest fudge of the whole lot. The
whole point of the Gold Card is that it recognises the loyalty of
those who put up ~2 grand in advance, and the Oyster card must 'know'
it holds an annual season. How hard would it be for said annual
season to trigger an automatic 'Railcard' flag, thus allowing Gold
Card holders the same reduced cap as (e.g.) YP card holders? I still
can't quite believe that annual season holders actually come out of
the great Oyster revolution *worse* than any other TfL users.

On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.

How on earth does Oyster know how much to deduct from your PAYG if it
doesn't know in which zone you travelled to?
It deducts £1.50 as you touch in (with an OEP loaded), but it may well
need to deduct additional funds (if you have a Z12 Travelcard and go
to zone 6, for example) - but unless you touch out, Oyster won't know
how much to take in total.

In message , Tim Roll-Pickering
writes

So the interesting legal point - can a TOC legally enforce a penalty fare if
it can be shown that the correct ticket was not available to passengers at
the starting station?

Probably not (or at least the PF can be appealed against). The DfT make
the situation clear he

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legis...policya?page=7

But with OEPs rapidly becoming available on automatic ticket machines
across London, it would probably be necessary to establish that the
ticket machine was broken and there was no other one available nearby.

Of course, if the ticket office staff are asked for an OEP and they
claim never to have heard of such a thing - even to the extent of saying
"you'll have to use the machine over there", I think one might enjoy a
very successful appeal.
--
Paul Terry

Chris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching
out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.


ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly
why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to
stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a
validator. The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but
TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it.

Paul S

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 03:42:50 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

So you put an OEP on and don't use it. Then a few days later you go
from Euston to Tring with a paper extension to your zones and the
train leaves from platform 8, so you touch at a barrier with your
travelcard. Presumably your lurking OEP would then clobber you for
not touching out at Tring?

Which is really bloody silly.

The solution to all this is to remove all situations (other than
equipment failure) where you'd legitimately touch in using an Oyster
and not touch out. This would be done by changing paper BZ extensions
such that they are valid for any journey from inside the Zones the
Travelcard is valid for to the specified destination, but are shown as
only valid when carrying the specific numbered Oyster card shown (and
checked) at purchase (to prevent double-use).

An option not to deduct the "entry charge" on NR when using a
Travelcard could then be offered. This would be done by not putting
any PAYG balance on the card at all. At that point, you'd be liable
for a PF if travelling outside your Zones for any reason using that
card.

So they would be marked as something like:-

==
STD OFF PEAK SINGLE

From: LONDN ZONES 1-3
To: TRING

Valid: Only with Oyster #12345678
==

....and would open any barrier in London zones 1-3, but if an inspector
came around to check then a PF would be due if the appropriate Oyster
was not being carried (not touched in). Thus there would be no need
to touch in at all, and the problem would go away.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Chris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching
out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.

ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly
why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to
stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a
validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but
TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it.

Paul S

But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill
Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the
number of passengers doesn't justify it). If TfL want to leave
barriers open somewhere to save on staff costs and then be subject to
revenue risk, that's a different matter. I appreciate that there are
now plenty of LO stations wthout barriers and various 'open'
interfaces with National Rail but the number is small relative to the
number of NR stations that are ungated.

Jonathan

In message
, MIG
writes

My initial reaction to the news of OEPs was that TOCs had been forced
to accept Oyster and were determined to sabotage it by making it
unusable. That opinion hasn't changed.

While I agree that OEPs currently seem a total mess, I don't think that
will do anything to sabotage Oyster. When OEPs were first announced it
was said that the percentage of journeys likely to need an OEP was
incredibly small. That's no excuse for making the procedure difficult,
of course, but it is not necessarily an Oyster-stopping issue.
--
Paul Terry

On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Chris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching
out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.

ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly
why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to
stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a
validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but
TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it.

Paul S

There's no difference surely between that situation and someone with a
paper
travelcard exiting outside their zones, surely?

Actually, there is a difference - with a paper ticket the passenger
will (likely)
know they're outside their zones and should be paying something extra,
somehow.
A passenger with both a travelcard and PAYG credit on their Oyster
card is likely
to think they'll have some credit deducted when they leave and not
have any idea
what an OEP is. (I know this has been done before, but it's still
crazy)

Paul Terry wrote:
In message
,
MIG writes

My initial reaction to the news of OEPs was that TOCs had been forced
to accept Oyster and were determined to sabotage it by making it
unusable. That opinion hasn't changed.

While I agree that OEPs currently seem a total mess, I don't think
that will do anything to sabotage Oyster. When OEPs were first
announced it was said that the percentage of journeys likely to need
an OEP was incredibly small. That's no excuse for making the
procedure difficult, of course, but it is not necessarily an
Oyster-stopping issue.

I suspect as franchises are renewed (as seen with SN recently), DfT will
work towards having all stations in the zonal area fitted with barriers, at
which time OEPs will become redundant?

Paul