On 3 Jan, 12:19, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
On 3 Jan, 11:52, MIG wrote:





On 3 Jan, 11:23, trainmanUK wrote:

....

In another thread, someone posted the result of an FOI request, which
included a TfL staff briefing, which included this statement.

"An Oyster Extension Permit is only needed when a journey is started
within the zones covered by a Travelcard at a LU/London Overground or
DLR station and involves travel by National Rail beyond its validity."

Seehttp://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/23222/response/62007/attach/4/P....

It seems bonkers to me too, but has it ever been suggested that NR
stations can issue OEPs?- Hide quoted text -

Of course as this is a tfl staff briefing document this would be
correct for all the people receiving said document. They are only
briefing their own staff not National Rail.

What they are also saying by implicaton is if your journey is ending
outside your zones but terminates at a LU/LO station then you dont
need an OEP.

I would like to know what the charge will be if you fail to get an
OEP. *Will it be a penalty fare (about £50) !!

If they try that on, cue high profile court cases, the end of Oyster
and the end of penalty fare schemes. *TfL's stretching of the rules
will lift the lid on dodgy practices and end up with a backlash
abolishing some less dodgy ones along with them, a bit like MPs'
expenses.

It would be good if fare-evaders were prosecuted instead of being let
off with a PF, and honest travellers weren't fair game for extra cash
for breaking an arbitrary rule which has no other purpose than to get
extra cash out of people for breaking the rule. *(TfL is becoming
worse than Ryanair on this.)

I suspect that because there are many National Rail stations where it
is not possible to set an OEP they cannot enforce penalty fares from
these stations.and as this would be even more confuriog, the TOCs can
only insist on OEPs on journeys starting from TfL stations.

But there's still that concept of "journey" that isn't defined. I am
still grappling.

Let's say I live near Stratford and have a zone 1 - 3 season ticket
and want to go to Hadley Wood (zone 6).

Wherever I get on, if it's the weekend and I change at Kings Cross,
then presumably, even if I think my journey started at Stratford, the
journey that counts for the gripper starts at Kings Cross NR and
doesn't need an OEP, or does it?

During the week, if I start at Stratford and go via Moorgate (no
touching on the way) I should have an OEP because I start at an LU
station.

But if I touch in at Maryland (NR) and go via Stratford and Moorgate
(no touching) I don't need an OEP?

MIG wrote:

Wherever I get on, if it's the weekend and I change at Kings Cross,
then presumably, even if I think my journey started at Stratford, the
journey that counts for the gripper starts at Kings Cross NR and
doesn't need an OEP, or does it?

I think it definitely does. The wording on the public Oyster site is:

"You only need to set an Oyster Extension Permit when you start a journey
within the zones covered by your Travelcard and want to travel outside those
zones on National Rail." It doesn't differentiate between NR and TfL
services at start of journey.

The internal briefing for TfL staff referred to earlier seems to be badly
written - but clearly they aren't operating NR stations. ISTM that briefing
NR and TfL staff differently is just symptomatic of the parochial nature of
these organisations...

Paul S

On 3 Jan, 12:38, MIG wrote:
On 3 Jan, 12:19, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:





On 3 Jan, 11:52, MIG wrote:

On 3 Jan, 11:23, trainmanUK wrote:

....

In another thread, someone posted the result of an FOI request, which
included a TfL staff briefing, which included this statement.

"An Oyster Extension Permit is only needed when a journey is started
within the zones covered by a Travelcard at a LU/London Overground or
DLR station and involves travel by National Rail beyond its validity."

Seehttp://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/23222/response/62007/attach/4/P....

It seems bonkers to me too, but has it ever been suggested that NR
stations can issue OEPs?- Hide quoted text -

Of course as this is a tfl staff briefing document this would be
correct for all the people receiving said document. They are only
briefing their own staff not National Rail.

What they are also saying by implicaton is if your journey is ending
outside your zones but terminates at a LU/LO station then you dont
need an OEP.

I would like to know what the charge will be if you fail to get an
OEP. *Will it be a penalty fare (about £50) !!

If they try that on, cue high profile court cases, the end of Oyster
and the end of penalty fare schemes. *TfL's stretching of the rules
will lift the lid on dodgy practices and end up with a backlash
abolishing some less dodgy ones along with them, a bit like MPs'
expenses.

It would be good if fare-evaders were prosecuted instead of being let
off with a PF, and honest travellers weren't fair game for extra cash
for breaking an arbitrary rule which has no other purpose than to get
extra cash out of people for breaking the rule. *(TfL is becoming
worse than Ryanair on this.)

I suspect that because there are many National Rail stations where it
is not possible to set an OEP they cannot enforce penalty fares from
these stations.and as this would be even more confuriog, the TOCs can
only insist on OEPs on journeys starting from TfL stations.

But there's still that concept of "journey" that isn't defined. *I am
still grappling.

Let's say I live near Stratford and have a zone 1 - 3 season ticket
and want to go to Hadley Wood (zone 6).

Wherever I get on, if it's the weekend and I change at Kings Cross,
then presumably, even if I think my journey started at Stratford, the
journey that counts for the gripper starts at Kings Cross NR and
doesn't need an OEP, or does it?

During the week, if I start at Stratford and go via Moorgate (no
touching on the way) I should have an OEP because I start at an LU
station.

But if I touch in at Maryland (NR) and go via Stratford and Moorgate
(no touching) I don't need an OEP?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes you will need an OEP. The confusion is coming because someone is
quoting from a TFL document for TFL staff which will be correct for
them. It still applies that you will need an OEP if your journey
starts on National Rail in the zones and ends on National Rail outside
the zones. The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching out)

On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.

How on earth does Oyster know how much to deduct from your PAYG if it
doesn't know in which zone you travelled to?
It deducts £1.50 as you touch in (with an OEP loaded), but it may well
need to deduct additional funds (if you have a Z12 Travelcard and go
to zone 6, for example) - but unless you touch out, Oyster won't know
how much to take in total.

Chris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching
out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.


ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly
why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to
stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a
validator. The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but
TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it.

Paul S

On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Chris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching
out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.

ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly
why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to
stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a
validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but
TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it.

Paul S

But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill
Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the
number of passengers doesn't justify it). If TfL want to leave
barriers open somewhere to save on staff costs and then be subject to
revenue risk, that's a different matter. I appreciate that there are
now plenty of LO stations wthout barriers and various 'open'
interfaces with National Rail but the number is small relative to the
number of NR stations that are ungated.

Jonathan

On 3 Jan, 19:09, Jonathan Harris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote:



Chris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching
out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.

ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly
why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to
stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a
validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but
TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it.

Paul S

But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill
Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the
number of passengers doesn't justify it). *If TfL want to leave
barriers open somewhere to save on staff costs and then be subject to
revenue risk, that's a different matter. I appreciate that there are
now plenty of LO stations wthout barriers and various 'open'
interfaces with National Rail but the number is small relative to the
number of NR stations that are ungated.

Jonathan

Finsbury Park is not gated, and one entrance at West Harrow and
Finchley Central aren't either.

On 3 Jan, 20:02, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
On 3 Jan, 19:09, Jonathan Harris wrote:





On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote:

Chris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching
out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.

ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly
why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to
stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a
validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but
TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it.

Paul S

But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill
Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the
number of passengers doesn't justify it). *If TfL want to leave
barriers open somewhere to save on staff costs and then be subject to
revenue risk, that's a different matter. I appreciate that there are
now plenty of LO stations wthout barriers and various 'open'
interfaces with National Rail but the number is small relative to the
number of NR stations that are ungated.

Jonathan

Finsbury Park is not gated, and one entrance at *West Harrow and
Finchley Central aren't either.

Er ... and the whole of the DLR.

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 12:02:13 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson wrote:

On 3 Jan, 19:09, Jonathan Harris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Chris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching
out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.

ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly
why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to
stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a
validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but
TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it.

Paul S

But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill
Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the
number of passengers doesn't justify it). *If TfL want to leave
barriers open somewhere to save on staff costs and then be subject to
revenue risk, that's a different matter. I appreciate that there are
now plenty of LO stations wthout barriers and various 'open'
interfaces with National Rail but the number is small relative to the
number of NR stations that are ungated.

Jonathan

Finsbury Park is not gated, and one entrance at West Harrow and
Finchley Central aren't either.

Nor is Waterloo (W&C).

And aren't there a few stations (Bank?) where the lifts allow you to
bypass the gateline?

On 3 Jan, 20:02, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
On 3 Jan, 19:09, Jonathan Harris wrote:





On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote:

Chris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote:
The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do
not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one
there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching
out)

Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators -
and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no.

ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly
why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to
stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a
validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but
TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it.

Paul S

But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill
Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the
number of passengers doesn't justify it). *If TfL want to leave
barriers open somewhere to save on staff costs and then be subject to
revenue risk, that's a different matter. I appreciate that there are
now plenty of LO stations wthout barriers and various 'open'
interfaces with National Rail but the number is small relative to the
number of NR stations that are ungated.

Jonathan

Finsbury Park is not gated, and one entrance at *West Harrow and
Finchley Central aren't either.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nor West Ruisilip if you walk down to Chiltern platforms and out to
car park
Sudbury town north gate appears to be almost never closed ( although
i never travel in peaks so cannot confirm peak situation)

HTH Phil