In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01ca9c53$a5c748c0$LocalHost@default...

Note 'to stations outside London Zones 1-6' which is Paul C's 'within
London' point.

They've actually dug them selves a big hole with this one, at least for
the travelcard version, because the published terms only seek to prevent
you leaving those stations listed above. So if you use the 'travelcard
validity' to Wimbledon for example, on a stopping train, you SHOULD
then be able to use the ticket for the rest of your journey to
'somewhere outside the zones'.

But as we also know from the earlier thread, the website restrictions
are not the same as those in the current fares manual - which suggest
you cannot join the trains at all during the blackout period, and the
example was shown of the restriction also applying at Wimbledon.

The typical grey area all the TOCs seem keen to introduce with
monotonous regularity...

FCC seem, after a false start, to have got this a bit clearer.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message ,
writes
FCC seem, after a false start, to have got this a bit clearer.

I'm not sure about that, or maybe I'm just not clever enough to
understand the current rules in all their glory.

On the FCC Bedford to London route, the evening restrictions apply (I
quote from the current FCC timetable booklet) where the "ticket covers a
return journey departing from area B to area D" - whe
B covers stations from East Croydon to West Hampstead inclusive,
C from Cricklewood to Radlett,
D from St.Albans to Bedford.

If you have a London 1-day Travelcard from area D you can avoid the
restriction by taking a train which calls at Elstree (which is within
the London Travelcard area and also in FCC area C). The journey from
London to Elstree can be done under TfL rules and so has no time
restrictions. The Travelcard clearly allows one to make a multiplicity
of journeys in the London area, plus one final journey back to one's
origin station from, say, Elstree. The second journey on the ticket
starts at Elstree (area C) and goes to area D, so is also unrestricted.
Of course you don't actually need to get out at Elstree, just be on a
train which gives you the opportunity to have done so.

I have done this several times, and have explained what I am doing at
the ticket barriers and had no trouble (but the automatic barriers are
not programmed to allow this). I think I have seem somewhere (but I
can't find it now) that FCC accept that travel on the stopping trains is
not subject to the restrictions: there is no reason that it should be
because (when things are running normally) they are always seats spare
on stoppers even in the evening peak.

On the other hand, if you have a simple day return rather than a
Travelcard from, say Luton to London Thameslink, can you do the same? If
you do a nominal break of journey at Elstree then you do one section B
to C, then another C to D. But the argument then depends on what one
means by a "journey". In this case one is clearly taking advantage of
the "break of journey" rules, which implies that B to D is the overall
journey, and the ticket presumably only covers one journey each way, one
to London and then one from London. So it could be argued that what I
have called the B to C and C to D sections are not separate journeys but
only parts of one single journey, so the restrictions would apply.
I really have no idea which argument would prevail, which is why I say
that things are still unclear.

I don't know if there are similarly placed stations on the Cambridge
line where the same conditions would apply? If so has anyone tested the
rules with a variety of tickets?

--
Clive Page

In article , (Clive Page)
wrote:

In message ,
writes
FCC seem, after a false start, to have got this a bit clearer.

I'm not sure about that, or maybe I'm just not clever enough to
understand the current rules in all their glory.

On the FCC Bedford to London route, the evening restrictions apply
(I quote from the current FCC timetable booklet) where the "ticket
covers a return journey departing from area B to area D" - whe
B covers stations from East Croydon to West Hampstead inclusive,
C from Cricklewood to Radlett,
D from St.Albans to Bedford.

If you have a London 1-day Travelcard from area D you can avoid the
restriction by taking a train which calls at Elstree (which is
within the London Travelcard area and also in FCC area C). The
journey from London to Elstree can be done under TfL rules and so
has no time restrictions. The Travelcard clearly allows one to
make a multiplicity of journeys in the London area, plus one final
journey back to one's origin station from, say, Elstree. The
second journey on the ticket starts at Elstree (area C) and goes to
area D, so is also unrestricted. Of course you don't actually need
to get out at Elstree, just be on a train which gives you the
opportunity to have done so.

I have done this several times, and have explained what I am doing
at the ticket barriers and had no trouble (but the automatic
barriers are not programmed to allow this). I think I have seem
somewhere (but I can't find it now) that FCC accept that travel on
the stopping trains is not subject to the restrictions: there is no
reason that it should be because (when things are running normally)
they are always seats spare on stoppers even in the evening peak.

On the other hand, if you have a simple day return rather than a
Travelcard from, say Luton to London Thameslink, can you do the
same? If you do a nominal break of journey at Elstree then you do
one section B to C, then another C to D. But the argument then
depends on what one means by a "journey". In this case one is
clearly taking advantage of the "break of journey" rules, which
implies that B to D is the overall journey, and the ticket
presumably only covers one journey each way, one to London and then
one from London. So it could be argued that what I have called the
B to C and C to D sections are not separate journeys but only parts
of one single journey, so the restrictions would apply.
I really have no idea which argument would prevail, which is why I
say that things are still unclear.

I don't know if there are similarly placed stations on the
Cambridge line where the same conditions would apply? If so has
anyone tested the rules with a variety of tickets?

I was really only thinking about the GN. I know that Thameslink gets
rather messier once you look South of London.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Jan 23, 4:49*pm, Mizter T wrote:

I wonder if at Waterloo it's as the gates being coded to reject all
'TOC-only' tickets apart from 'SWT-only' (of which I don't think any
actually exist, do they?)

Is that so? It could partly explain why Advance Aldershot-Crewe
Virgin tickets have about a 50/50 chance of opening the barriers at
Aldershot, almost never accepted at Waterloo SWT barriers (but have
been at least once), always at Waterloo tube barriers and almost
always at Euston tube barriers!

Last time, the rejected ticket sparked a discussion off between the
SWT barrier staff at Waterloo about where Crewe was and if the ticket
was valid (which it most certainly is). Annoying, particularly as
this type of discussion has the potential to escalate and cause a
missed train at Euston. I wonder where the passenger would stand in
this situation - would Virgin staff accept it as a valid reason for
delay beyond the passengers control and allow them to travel on a
later train? Fortunately didn't need to find out on this occasion.

Ian

On Jan 25, 1:53*pm, "
wrote:

On Jan 23, 4:49*pm, Mizter T wrote:

I wonder if at Waterloo it's as the gates being coded to reject all
'TOC-only' tickets apart from 'SWT-only' (of which I don't think any
actually exist, do they?)

Is that so? *It could partly explain why Advance Aldershot-Crewe
Virgin tickets have about a 50/50 chance of opening the barriers at
Aldershot, almost never accepted at Waterloo SWT barriers (but have
been at least once), always at Waterloo tube barriers and almost
always at Euston tube barriers!

It is not so, going by Paul Corfield's post upthread - the magnetic
encoding of NR tickets is pretty simple.

When I referred to "SWT-only" tickets, I literally meant that -
tickets only valid on SWT trains and marked as such. These exist
elsewhere, for example there are "FCC-only" tickets from London to
Brighton. However, apart from occasional promotions, there aren't any
"SWT-only" tickets issued.

Your Advance Aldershot-Crewe ticket is a combination of a specified
train ticket - the bit on Virgin - and in effect an 'any permitted'
ticket for the Aldershot to London bit (there's no compulsory
reservation for that bit). Why it only sometimes works the gates at
Waterloo, I can't say - do you buy them from different places? If so,
it may simply be that it's encoded correctly by one retailer, but not
by another.


Last time, the rejected ticket sparked a discussion off between the
SWT barrier staff at Waterloo about where Crewe was and if the ticket
was valid (which it most certainly is). *Annoying, particularly as
this type of discussion has the potential to escalate and cause a
missed train at Euston. *I wonder where the passenger would stand in
this situation - would Virgin staff accept it as a valid reason for
delay beyond the passengers control and allow them to travel on a
later train? *Fortunately didn't need to find out on this occasion.

Perhaps they'd consider it daft enough to be believable.

Mizter T wrote:

When I referred to "SWT-only" tickets, I literally meant that -
tickets only valid on SWT trains and marked as such. These exist
elsewhere, for example there are "FCC-only" tickets from London to
Brighton. However, apart from occasional promotions, there aren't any
"SWT-only" tickets issued.

Not even the Advance fares that are available on SWT from the western
extremities of their network? Anyone know for sure how they are marked?

Paul S

Paul Scott wrote:
Not even the Advance fares that are available on SWT from the western
extremities of their network? Anyone know for sure how they are marked?

Most of the flexible tickets to from the Home Counties on DMUs to points
west are Route Salisbury. That's to stop them being valid on the GWML to
Bristol/Exeter. This is a hangover from Intercity/NSE days.

A SWT-only restriction would be rather annoying, since FGW DMUs also
operate some of the routes (eg Salisbury to Trowbridge, Warminster etc).

(Those FGW DMUs I'm thinking of are the ex-Regional Railways
Cardiff-Portsmouth service, which presumably would also have been covered
under the original Route Salisbury restriction)

I don't know AP tickets, but surely for the advance bit they're
specified-train-only so the routing doesn't matter, and for +Connections the
same rules as flexible tickets apply?

Theo

Theo Markettos wrote:
Paul Scott wrote:
Not even the Advance fares that are available on SWT from the western
extremities of their network? Anyone know for sure how they are
marked?

Most of the flexible tickets to from the Home Counties on DMUs to
points west are Route Salisbury. That's to stop them being valid on
the GWML to Bristol/Exeter. This is a hangover from Intercity/NSE
days.

Er.. that's why I specifically mentioned SWT's 'Advance fares'. Such as
Weymouth to Waterloo - how is that marked?

As you point out 'Route Salisbury' simply does what it says on the tin...

Paul S

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...
Theo Markettos wrote:
Paul Scott wrote:
Not even the Advance fares that are available on SWT from the
western
extremities of their network? Anyone know for sure how they are
marked?

Most of the flexible tickets to from the Home Counties on DMUs to
points west are Route Salisbury. That's to stop them being valid on
the GWML to Bristol/Exeter. This is a hangover from Intercity/NSE
days.

Er.. that's why I specifically mentioned SWT's 'Advance fares'. Such
as Weymouth to Waterloo - how is that marked?

They are rte AP WOKING, as opposed to the rte AP SLOUGH tickets that are
also available.

Peter Smyth

Clive Page wrote

On the other hand, if you have a simple day return rather than a
Travelcard from, say Luton to London Thameslink, can you do the same?
If
you do a nominal break of journey at Elstree then you do one section
B
to C, then another C to D. But the argument then depends on what one

means by a "journey". In this case one is clearly taking advantage
of

I suggest you need to see what the Fare Manual gives as the ticket
restriction as Paul Scott kindly did for the SWT case.

SWT outside the zones - evening peak changes
Date: 12 January 2010 10:49

--
Mike D