on BBC London News this lunchtime:
"Transport for London (TfL) has been called "stingy" and "Scrooge-
like" for imposing a £1 charge on rail passengers using a short-cut
through a station."

Full story at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/8484960.stm

What's the real deal here? Is this just a charge to enter one station
and exit another, or if I got the Jubilee to Southwark and exited
through an exit at Waterloo East, would I be charged an extra quid?
(I've never used Waterloo East, and think I've only been to Southwark
once, so I'm not clear on the layout of the station or this
'expensive' corridor.)

"martin" wrote in message
...
on BBC London News this lunchtime:
"Transport for London (TfL) has been called "stingy" and "Scrooge-
like" for imposing a £1 charge on rail passengers using a short-cut
through a station."

Full story at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/8484960.stm

What's the real deal here? Is this just a charge to enter one station
and exit another, or if I got the Jubilee to Southwark and exited
through an exit at Waterloo East, would I be charged an extra quid?
(I've never used Waterloo East, and think I've only been to Southwark
once, so I'm not clear on the layout of the station or this
'expensive' corridor.)

It is perfectly reasonable for passengers to alight at Waterloo East and
want to go to Blackfriars Road, for which the Southwark tube exit is ideal.
Walking towards Waterloo and then back again is ridiculous and the fact that
this wasn't thought through when the station was opened shows very poor
judgement. It is true that the exit for Waterloo East is shown as via
Waterloo (and the signs to Southwark just say Jubilee Line), but it still
needs sorting out.

MaxB

On Jan 28, 2:51*pm, martin wrote:

on BBC London News this lunchtime:
"Transport for London (TfL) has been called "stingy" and "Scrooge-
like" for imposing a £1 charge on rail passengers using a short-cut
through a station."

Full story at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/8484960.stm

What's the real deal here? Is this just a charge to enter one station
and exit another, or if I got the Jubilee to Southwark and exited
through an exit at Waterloo East, would I be charged an extra quid?
(I've never used Waterloo East, and think I've only been to Southwark
once, so I'm not clear on the layout of the station or this
'expensive' corridor.)

To be clear, the story appears to specifically relate to a £1 *paper*
"platform ticket" which is required if one wants to use Southwark tube
station as a shortcut between Waterloo East and the main entrance of
Southwark tube station on the corner of The Cut and Blackfriars Road -
what's more, the story says that "Oyster and travelcard users are not
charged" - whether that definitely includes Oyster PAYG users is not
100% clear.

To understand this, you need to have some knowledge of the geography
here. The Waterloo East platforms are accessed via a high walkway from
Waterloo mainline station (with an additional entrance to this walkway
up several sets of stairs from Sandell Street). This leads one to an
overbridge on the western side of the platforms. The station is not
gated (at least it wasn't v recently).

However, there is also an entrance to Southwark tube station on the
eastern ends of the platform. This leads down to the undercroft of the
viaduct, which leads on to a hallway where there is a set of gates
that gains one access to the tube station, which one gets to by then
descending some escalators. This hallway is actually at street level,
but there's *no* exit to the street at all - it sits beside and a bit
under the southside of the viaduct, between Greet Street and Hatfields
(another street). The reason for this is that it was a condition of
the planning permission of Southwark tube station that there wasn't a
public entrance/exit here - it's a quasi-residential area, so the
thinking presumably was to keep it quieter.

So, what people do is they use Southwark tube station as a shortcut
between the Waterloo East platforms and the main entrance of the tube
station on the corner of The Cut and Blackfriars Road, instead of
having to walk round the longer way up on to the high walkway and then
down to street level and end up backtracking on oneself.

If you got the Jubilee to Southwark tube station, you'd find the exit
to Waterloo East signed as being for "National Rail ticket holders
only" - how PAYG has been implemented on NR at Waterloo East I don't
know, i.e. whether one has to touch-out from the Tube through the
gates and then touch back in on a standalone reader. However that's
***totally irrelevant*** to this issue - if you're on the Jubilee line
and want to go to either Waterloo mainline station or the surrounding
area thereof then you get off at Waterloo itself, rather than getting
off at Southwark and making a long and unnecessary detour via Waterloo
East.

*This issue* is about people arriving at Waterloo East who want to get
out to Blackfriars Road / The Cut quickly. These are people who'll
have tickets issued to "London Terminals" (i.e. not Travelcards).

One further thing - LU used to offer a free gate pass for holders of
NR season tickets (i.e. issued to "London Terminals") for use at
Southwark tube station so they could take advantage of this shortcut -
the article is not clear as to whether such a thing is still made
available, does anyone know?

On Jan 28, 3:38*pm, "Batman55" wrote:

"martin" wrote:
on BBC London News this lunchtime:
"Transport for London (TfL) has been called "stingy" and "Scrooge-
like" for imposing a £1 charge on rail passengers using a short-cut
through a station."

Full story at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/8484960.stm

What's the real deal here? Is this just a charge to enter one station
and exit another, or if I got the Jubilee to Southwark and exited
through an exit at Waterloo East, would I be charged an extra quid?
(I've never used Waterloo East, and think I've only been to Southwark
once, so I'm not clear on the layout of the station or this
'expensive' corridor.)

====================

It is perfectly reasonable for passengers to alight at Waterloo East and
want to go to Blackfriars Road, for which the Southwark tube exit is ideal.
Walking towards Waterloo and then back again is ridiculous and the fact that
this wasn't thought through when the station was opened shows very poor
judgement. It is true that the exit for Waterloo East is shown as via
Waterloo (and the signs to Southwark just say Jubilee Line), but it still
needs sorting out.

It was thought through though - it was a condition of the planning
permission given for Southwark tube station that no new intermediate
exit from Waterloo East onto the street be created. Presumably this
was done to keep surrounding residential areas quieter.

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:38:15 -0000
"Batman55" wrote:
It is perfectly reasonable for passengers to alight at Waterloo East and
want to go to Blackfriars Road, for which the Southwark tube exit is ideal.

If TfL can make some money somewhere they will. This has obviously been hiding
under their radar for a while doing no harm whatsoever since the station was
built and providing a nice shortcut for commuters. Can't have that now can we?
Must get every last penny.

I assume its just one new set of gates put in. Hopefully people will just
barge through them and with any luck break them.

B2003

On Jan 28, 4:37*pm, wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:38:15 -0000
"Batman55" wrote:
It is perfectly reasonable for passengers to alight at Waterloo East and
want to go to Blackfriars Road, for which the Southwark tube exit is ideal.

If TfL can make some money somewhere they will. This has obviously been hiding
under their radar for a while doing no harm whatsoever since the station was
built and providing a nice shortcut for commuters. Can't have that now can we?
Must get every last penny.

I assume its just one new set of gates put in. Hopefully people will just
barge through them and with any luck break them.

No new gates (see my other posts).

Actually it seems possible that LU might have actually opened up this
shortcut to people who previously didn't have access to it - the other
option being that they've withdrawn the free gate pass previously
offered to NR season tickets holders to enable them to use this
shortcut.

On 28 Jan, 16:19, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 28, 2:51*pm, martin wrote:

on BBC London News this lunchtime:
"Transport for London (TfL) has been called "stingy" and "Scrooge-
like" for imposing a £1 charge on rail passengers using a short-cut
through a station."

Full story at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/8484960.stm

What's the real deal here? Is this just a charge to enter one station
and exit another, or if I got the Jubilee to Southwark and exited
through an exit at Waterloo East, would I be charged an extra quid?
(I've never used Waterloo East, and think I've only been to Southwark
once, so I'm not clear on the layout of the station or this
'expensive' corridor.)

To be clear, the story appears to specifically relate to a £1 *paper*
"platform ticket" which is required if one wants to use Southwark tube
station as a shortcut between Waterloo East and the main entrance of
Southwark tube station on the corner of The Cut and Blackfriars Road -
what's more, the story says that "Oyster and travelcard users are not
charged" - whether that definitely includes Oyster PAYG users is not
100% clear.

To understand this, you need to have some knowledge of the geography
here. The Waterloo East platforms are accessed via a high walkway from
Waterloo mainline station (with an additional entrance to this walkway
up several sets of stairs from Sandell Street). This leads one to an
overbridge on the western side of the platforms. The station is not
gated (at least it wasn't v recently).

However, there is also an entrance to Southwark tube station on the
eastern ends of the platform. This leads down to the undercroft of the
viaduct, which leads on to a hallway where there is a set of gates
that gains one access to the tube station, which one gets to by then
descending some escalators. This hallway is actually at street level,
but there's *no* exit to the street at all - it sits beside and a bit
under the southside of the viaduct, between Greet Street and Hatfields
(another street). The reason for this is that it was a condition of
the planning permission of Southwark tube station that there wasn't a
public entrance/exit here - it's a quasi-residential area, so the
thinking presumably was to keep it quieter.


There are actually now two sets of gates facing each other
(Southeastern and TfL) with a small no-mans-land area in between where
there are Southeastern and Tfl ticket machines

On Jan 28, 5:18*pm, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

On 28 Jan, 16:19, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 28, 2:51*pm, martin wrote:

on BBC London News this lunchtime:
"Transport for London (TfL) has been called "stingy" and "Scrooge-
like" for imposing a £1 charge on rail passengers using a short-cut
through a station."

Full story at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/8484960.stm

What's the real deal here? Is this just a charge to enter one station
and exit another, or if I got the Jubilee to Southwark and exited
through an exit at Waterloo East, would I be charged an extra quid?
(I've never used Waterloo East, and think I've only been to Southwark
once, so I'm not clear on the layout of the station or this
'expensive' corridor.)

To be clear, the story appears to specifically relate to a £1 *paper*
"platform ticket" which is required if one wants to use Southwark tube
station as a shortcut between Waterloo East and the main entrance of
Southwark tube station on the corner of The Cut and Blackfriars Road -
what's more, the story says that "Oyster and travelcard users are not
charged" - whether that definitely includes Oyster PAYG users is not
100% clear.

To understand this, you need to have some knowledge of the geography
here. The Waterloo East platforms are accessed via a high walkway from
Waterloo mainline station (with an additional entrance to this walkway
up several sets of stairs from Sandell Street). This leads one to an
overbridge on the western side of the platforms. The station is not
gated (at least it wasn't v recently).

However, there is also an entrance to Southwark tube station on the
eastern ends of the platform. This leads down to the undercroft of the
viaduct, which leads on to a hallway where there is a set of gates
that gains one access to the tube station, which one gets to by then
descending some escalators. This hallway is actually at street level,
but there's *no* exit to the street at all - it sits beside and a bit
under the southside of the viaduct, between Greet Street and Hatfields
(another street). The reason for this is that it was a condition of
the planning permission of Southwark tube station that there wasn't a
public entrance/exit here - it's a quasi-residential area, so the
thinking presumably was to keep it quieter.

There are actually now two sets of gates facing each other
(Southeastern and TfL) with a small no-mans-land area in between where
there are Southeastern and Tfl ticket machines

Thanks Matthew - I'm obviously out of date! That is at least a
straightforward, albeit slightly clunky, way of dealing with it.

I was imagining there either being standalone Oyster readers for
Waterloo East, or otherwise some complex arrangement whereby the LU
gates were programmed to take account of the possibility that the
journey might continue onwards on NR or LU depending on which side the
passenger arrived at. I think the chosen solution is probably for the
best (though it's also rather odd sounding!).

It's worth noting that if either set of gates is locked open for
whatever reason, e.g. no staff to attend to it (more likely to be the
Southeastern gates!) then pax using Oyster PAYG would still need to
negotiate both set of gates, i.e. touch-out on one set, then touch-in
again.

I remember finding some very bored Southeastern RPIs in the no-mans
land of the hall once - was a bit strange to have them request sight
of my ticket - which was actually an Oyster plus season Travelcard,
which one of them scanned with a handheld reader - then almost
immediately having to touch my Oyster on the LU gate.

I'm left wondering whether a PAYG user arriving on Southeastern who
then uses the shortcut through Southwark tube station (i.e. to get
straight out the other side) might well end up getting charged the
through NR+LU fare, rather than the NR fare. That's a simple enough
experiment to do... though I'm never quite sure when the Waterloo East
entrance to Southwark tube station is open, as it's closed later in
the evening and also maybe for some of the weekend.l

Any idea if Waterloo East now has gates on the main way via the high
level walkway nowadays?

On 28 Jan, 16:24, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 28, 3:38*pm, "Batman55" wrote:





"martin" wrote:
on BBC London News this lunchtime:
"Transport for London (TfL) has been called "stingy" and "Scrooge-
like" for imposing a £1 charge on rail passengers using a short-cut
through a station."

Full story at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/8484960.stm

What's the real deal here? Is this just a charge to enter one station
and exit another, or if I got the Jubilee to Southwark and exited
through an exit at Waterloo East, would I be charged an extra quid?
(I've never used Waterloo East, and think I've only been to Southwark
once, so I'm not clear on the layout of the station or this
'expensive' corridor.)

====================

It is perfectly reasonable for passengers to alight at Waterloo East and
want to go to Blackfriars Road, for which the Southwark tube exit is ideal.
Walking towards Waterloo and then back again is ridiculous and the fact that
this wasn't thought through when the station was opened shows very poor
judgement. It is true that the exit for Waterloo East is shown as via
Waterloo (and the signs to Southwark just say Jubilee Line), but it still
needs sorting out.

It was thought through though - it was a condition of the planning
permission given for Southwark tube station that no new intermediate
exit from Waterloo East onto the street be created. Presumably this
was done to keep surrounding residential areas quieter.

Does this condition no longer apply? Or is the £1 platform ticket
considered to be sufficient to price off a significant proportion of
the people who don't have travelcards?

It effectively does provide an exit for anyone with a travelcard,
which is a lot of people, and probably the majority of people at the
times when it's busiest. It's the obvious route from the south east
to TfL's offices, for example ...

On Jan 28, 5:33*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:51:38 -0800 (PST), martin
wrote:
on BBC London News this lunchtime:
"Transport for London (TfL) has been called "stingy" and "Scrooge-
like" for imposing a £1 charge on rail passengers using a short-cut
through a station."

Full story at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/8484960.stm

What's the real deal here? Is this just a charge to enter one station
and exit another, or if I got the Jubilee to Southwark and exited
through an exit at Waterloo East, would I be charged an extra quid?
(I've never used Waterloo East, and think I've only been to Southwark
once, so I'm not clear on the layout of the station or this
'expensive' corridor.)

I'm not entirely clear what is going on here but one factor to bear in
mind is that South Eastern have recently gated Waterloo East thus
creating the situation of a no man's land between their new exit
gateline (at what is the eastern end of their station) and the entry
gateline at the western end of LU's Southwark Station. Therefore it is
now possible to be marooned between two gatelines with no exit to the
street (as such an exit was never constructed). *Quite how that
situation was allowed to arise I do not know nor how it was ever
approved on safety grounds.

AIUI there's no exit to the street for planning consent reasons.

I presume the safety issue is predominantly that of effectively
managing heavy crowds, yes? I can certainly see the potential issue
there, what with two independent gatelines under the responsibility of
two different sets of staff, working for different companies.


Whether the new gateline has created a need for platform tickets to be
required in the LUL station or whether there is a recorded abuse of the
old "let them through" attitude I do not know. * I suspect this will run
and run given the political pressure sitting behind it - cue lots of
Mayor's questions.

There used to be a poster or two in the main ticket hall at Southwark
tube station (i.e. the one on the corner of The Cut and Blackfriars
Road) which stated that gate passes were available for NR season
ticket holders, which were IIRC free - said gate passes were to enable
them to make use of this shortcut. That was a while back, and when I
looked more recently I couldn't find any such notices.

I'm therefore wondering if these gate passes, if they were indeed
still available, have now been withdrawn - but the article makes no
mention of this whatsoever. So I'm tempted to actually think this is a
new arrangement put in place because the new Southeastern gates might
have made the 'old "let them through" attitude' unworkable - perhaps
the SE gates swallow tickets to 'London Terminals', whereas previously
there was an informal arrangement whereby pax brandishing NR tickets
were let through at both gatelines?