Today I travelled to London on a super off-peak London One-day
Travelcard purchased from FCC at Luton Airport Parkway. I know from
past experiences that these tickets operate the gates at all TfL
stations that I've used, but consistently fail at those of South Eastern
Trains (e.g. Charing Cross and London Bridge). Today I also found both
of our tickets were rejected at London St.Pancras (upper level), which
surprised me because EMT operate direct trains to Luton Airport Parkway
and ought to have their barriers programmed correctly. I have no idea
whether the fault is with FCC for not encoding the tickets correctly (as
the EMT barrier man said) or with the other train companies failing to
recognise this fairly new type of ticket. The rejection code, I think,
is 105.

It is really annoying to have to spend extra minutes searching out the
manned barrier at these stations, where there is often a small queue of
people with problems, and then explaining why my ticket fails. At some
time I shall miss a train because of the extra delay.

Has anyone else experienced the same problem? It would be useful to
know before I try complaining to the various companies involved.


--
Clive Page

In message , Clive Page
writes

I have no idea whether the fault is with FCC for not encoding the
tickets correctly (as the EMT barrier man said) or with the other train
companies failing to recognise this fairly new type of ticket. The
rejection code, I think, is 105.

I thought Oyster error codes are all double digits. Very few end in 5,
but 05 is "engineer signed onto machine" and 15 is "no onward validity".
--
Paul Terry

On Jan 30, 7:09*pm, Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Clive Page
writes

I have no idea whether the fault is with FCC for not encoding the
tickets correctly (as the EMT barrier man said) or with the other train
companies failing to recognise this fairly new type of ticket. *The
rejection code, I think, is 105.

I thought Oyster error codes are all double digits. Very few end in 5,
but 05 is "engineer signed onto machine" and 15 is "no onward validity".

It's not an Oyster error code though, as it is a National Rail station
being used with a paper ticket

I think NR had to add some codes on top of the TfL ones due things
like tickets with limited validity. However, I can't find a list of
the extra codes (I have seen three digits ones though).

"Clive Page" wrote in message
...
Today I travelled to London on a super off-peak London One-day Travelcard
purchased from FCC at Luton Airport Parkway. I know from past experiences
that these tickets operate the gates at all TfL stations that I've used,
but consistently fail at those of South Eastern Trains (e.g. Charing Cross
and London Bridge). Today I also found both of our tickets were rejected
at London St.Pancras (upper level), which surprised me because EMT operate
direct trains to Luton Airport Parkway and ought to have their barriers
programmed correctly. I have no idea whether the fault is with FCC for
not encoding the tickets correctly (as the EMT barrier man said) or with
the other train companies failing to recognise this fairly new type of
ticket. The rejection code, I think, is 105.

I've had the occasional NR ticket [especially if printed on a portable
machine] that wouldn't work any LU or NR barrier all day, the view of most
gate staff was that it just one of those glitches that happen. I'd be
surprised if the fact it was a 'super off peak' was relevant to the problem
really, SWT have been issuing them for nearly 3 years now, and I've been
using them around London nearly as long.

A couple of weeks ago I was accidentally sold a Super Offpeak Day travelcard
dated for 8 days later. That definitely wouldn't have worked, so I had it
reissued at another ticket office while changing trains. The guy in front of
me in the original queue had been making a timetable query for the following
week, I guess the clerk had moved the date forward?

Paul S

In message , Paul Scott
writes
gate staff was that it just one of those glitches that happen. I'd be
surprised if the fact it was a 'super off peak' was relevant to the problem
really, SWT have been issuing them for nearly 3 years now, and I've been
using them around London nearly as long.

Well I've had similar problems with *all* Super Off-peak 1-day
travelcards, which work at all TfL gatelines, but not at many other
"national rail" ones. The regular off-peak travelcards suffer
occasional failures at the odd gate, but work maybe 95% of the time, and
don't fail consistently anywhere.

I didn't realise that SWT had been using them for so long - the factor
perhaps you are missing here is that my tickets have been issued by FCC
- not one of the most competent train companies.

--
Clive Page

In message , Clive Page
writes
Well I've had similar problems with *all* Super Off-peak 1-day
travelcards, which work at all TfL gatelines, but not at many other
"national rail" ones. The regular off-peak travelcards suffer
occasional failures at the odd gate, but work maybe 95% of the time,
and don't fail consistently anywhere.

I just got an admission from South Eastern Trains that they were wrong:
quote

Further to my colleague's email on 12 February, I have been contacted by
our Gateline Compliance Manager regarding the specific problem you've
experienced at our gatelines. You're correct - our gates should be
accepting your ticket and thanks to the further information you've
provided, we have tracked down the problem.

We have looked through the accepted ticket types on the gates at London
Bridge and this Super Off-Peak One Day Travelcard product is not
programmed to be accepted at present. I believe it is a relatively new
product introduced by a different train operator (First Capital Connect)
which has never been picked up for updating our ticket gates.

Our Fares and Ticketing department have now asked that this ticket is
loaded onto all gates within the Travelcard area. This should be
completed in the next 28 days so you will hopefully notice an
improvement on your next journey.
/quote

They are a bit slow off the mark, it seems to me, as these off-peak
Travelcards have been on sale for many months, and now another month to
fix the problem. But it's a first for me to have a train company admit
that they were wrong.


--
Clive Page

On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 20:56:39 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:


"Clive Page" wrote in message
...
Today I travelled to London on a super off-peak London One-day Travelcard
purchased from FCC at Luton Airport Parkway. I know from past experiences
that these tickets operate the gates at all TfL stations that I've used,
but consistently fail at those of South Eastern Trains (e.g. Charing Cross
and London Bridge). Today I also found both of our tickets were rejected
at London St.Pancras (upper level), which surprised me because EMT operate
direct trains to Luton Airport Parkway and ought to have their barriers
programmed correctly. I have no idea whether the fault is with FCC for
not encoding the tickets correctly (as the EMT barrier man said) or with
the other train companies failing to recognise this fairly new type of
ticket. The rejection code, I think, is 105.

I've had the occasional NR ticket [especially if printed on a portable
machine] that wouldn't work any LU or NR barrier all day, the view of most
gate staff was that it just one of those glitches that happen. I'd be
surprised if the fact it was a 'super off peak' was relevant to the problem
really, SWT have been issuing them for nearly 3 years now, and I've been
using them around London nearly as long.

A couple of weeks ago I was accidentally sold a Super Offpeak Day travelcard
dated for 8 days later. That definitely wouldn't have worked, so I had it
reissued at another ticket office while changing trains. The guy in front of
me in the original queue had been making a timetable query for the following
week, I guess the clerk had moved the date forward?

I had an "FCC Only" travelcard the other day which kept giving "Seek
Assistance" messages at gates, both on the NR gates at Victoria and on
the LU gates at Victoria and St James's Park.

Presumably this is intended to stop people with an FCC only T/C using
the Southern trains beyond East Croydon.

In article , (Clive Page)
wrote:

Today I travelled to London on a super off-peak London One-day
Travelcard purchased from FCC at Luton Airport Parkway. I know
from past experiences that these tickets operate the gates at all
TfL stations that I've used, but consistently fail at those of
South Eastern Trains (e.g. Charing Cross and London Bridge). Today
I also found both of our tickets were rejected at London St.Pancras
(upper level), which surprised me because EMT operate direct trains
to Luton Airport Parkway and ought to have their barriers
programmed correctly. I have no idea whether the fault is with FCC
for not encoding the tickets correctly (as the EMT barrier man
said) or with the other train companies failing to recognise this
fairly new type of ticket. The rejection code, I think, is 105.

It is really annoying to have to spend extra minutes searching out
the manned barrier at these stations, where there is often a small
queue of people with problems, and then explaining why my ticket
fails. At some time I shall miss a train because of the extra
delay.

Has anyone else experienced the same problem? It would be useful
to know before I try complaining to the various companies involved.

I get a similar problem if I get a Cambridge-London Terminals Off Peak Day
Return and come back on the 19:15 off the Cross. The ticket is invariably
rejected by the barriers at Cambridge. The ticket is issued by NXEA and
the Cambridge station barriers are theirs too.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

[x-posted to uk.railway]
[original thread on uk.transport.london]

On Jan 30, 7:39*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:42:56 +0000, Clive Page wrote:
Today I travelled to London on a super off-peak London One-day
Travelcard purchased from FCC at Luton Airport Parkway. *I know from
past experiences that these tickets operate the gates at all TfL
stations that I've used, but consistently fail at those of South Eastern
Trains (e.g. Charing Cross and London Bridge). *Today I also found both
of our tickets were rejected at London St.Pancras (upper level), which
surprised me because EMT operate direct trains to Luton Airport Parkway
and ought to have their barriers programmed correctly. *I have no idea
whether the fault is with FCC for not encoding the tickets correctly (as
the EMT barrier man said) or with the other train companies failing to
recognise this fairly new type of ticket. *The rejection code, I think,
is 105.

It is really annoying to have to spend extra minutes searching out the
manned barrier at these stations, where there is often a small queue of
people with problems, and then explaining why my ticket fails. *At some
time I shall miss a train because of the extra delay.

Has anyone else experienced the same problem? *It would be useful to
know before I try complaining to the various companies involved.

I have not had the same problem but I have not purchased any tickets
that might be problematic other than All Line Rovers. I never put the
All Line Rover in a NR Ticket gate during any journeys. I always went to
the manual gate as I was not prepared to risk having my ticket
confiscated or missing a train due to a ticket reject.

If you do decide to complain I think you should ask a pointed question
about the basis of NR ticket gating and ensuring there is a properly
controlled and integrated system of ticket issuing, ticket coding,
ticket reading, ticket interpretation and finally ticket rewriting and
final validation. *I am not up to date so I may be wrong but I am not
aware of any NR funded improvement to the ticket stripe so that the NR
portion of it is used for NR journey checking. *I believe the TOCs
"botch" their checking around what is encoded on the LUL portion of the
stripe. *When you "botch" something that is not yours to "botch" it is
no wonder there are problems. The LU system is obviously not designed to
cater for the scale of the NR network. Ask them what their policy is,
what they have done to avoid or remove passenger inconvenience and how
they have ensured that what FCC does is compatible with LUL, DLR and
every other TOC? * The problems you quote give you examples to hang off
these questions.

I would be astonished if you get a coherent and plausible response from
any TOC. I would also suggest you ask the same questions of ATOC and
Rail Settlement Plan - they are supposed to "control" these sorts of
industry wide issues. *If you do get a response then I would love to
read it on here - assuming you are willing to share it.

With regards to the magnetic stripe being divided between having an
LUL portion and an as yet unused BR (now NR) portion - this is
something you've mentioned in a good number of past posts, but I'm
just wondering if you could possibly flesh it out a little bit - some
example questions (which I now realise, having typed them out, sound
more like an inquisition as opposed to an opener to a casual
discussion!)...

(1) what kind of data is held on the LUL portion?
(2) what data did the system architects anticipate the BR portion
would hold?
(3) is the BR portion just a 'blank canvas', or is there some storage
structure that any data stored thereon would have to fall into line
with?
(4) did BR/ does NR do any ticket rewriting at all, or is that
basically off-limits as it would otherwise infringe on the LUL
portion?
(5) to what extent does LUL make use of the capacity for rewriting?
(6) pre-privatisation, did BR make any moves towards utilising their
portion of the stripe? Of course, they didn't have any gates (did
they?).

I'm tempted to ask one more... how many people in DfT Rail do you
think actually even comprehend this issue?! Given the funding they
allocate for gating, perhaps they should!

Lastly, how many funny looks do you get from rail staff if you show
them an all-lines rail rover? I'm just wondering for how many wouldn't
have seen one before.

(I hope you don't mind but I've taken the raw liberty of crossposting
this to the bear pit that is uk.railway!)

On 30 Jan, 20:30, Mizter T wrote:
[x-posted to uk.railway]
[original thread on uk.transport.london]

On Jan 30, 7:39*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:



On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:42:56 +0000, Clive Page wrote:
Today I travelled to London on a super off-peak London One-day
Travelcard purchased from FCC at Luton Airport Parkway. *I know from
past experiences that these tickets operate the gates at all TfL
stations that I've used, but consistently fail at those of South Eastern
Trains (e.g. Charing Cross and London Bridge). *Today I also found both
of our tickets were rejected at London St.Pancras (upper level), which
surprised me because EMT operate direct trains to Luton Airport Parkway
and ought to have their barriers programmed correctly. *I have no idea
whether the fault is with FCC for not encoding the tickets correctly (as
the EMT barrier man said) or with the other train companies failing to
recognise this fairly new type of ticket. *The rejection code, I think,
is 105.

It is really annoying to have to spend extra minutes searching out the
manned barrier at these stations, where there is often a small queue of
people with problems, and then explaining why my ticket fails. *At some
time I shall miss a train because of the extra delay.

Has anyone else experienced the same problem? *It would be useful to
know before I try complaining to the various companies involved.

I have not had the same problem but I have not purchased any tickets
that might be problematic other than All Line Rovers. I never put the
All Line Rover in a NR Ticket gate during any journeys. I always went to
the manual gate as I was not prepared to risk having my ticket
confiscated or missing a train due to a ticket reject.

If you do decide to complain I think you should ask a pointed question
about the basis of NR ticket gating and ensuring there is a properly
controlled and integrated system of ticket issuing, ticket coding,
ticket reading, ticket interpretation and finally ticket rewriting and
final validation. *I am not up to date so I may be wrong but I am not
aware of any NR funded improvement to the ticket stripe so that the NR
portion of it is used for NR journey checking. *I believe the TOCs
"botch" their checking around what is encoded on the LUL portion of the
stripe. *When you "botch" something that is not yours to "botch" it is
no wonder there are problems. The LU system is obviously not designed to
cater for the scale of the NR network. Ask them what their policy is,
what they have done to avoid or remove passenger inconvenience and how
they have ensured that what FCC does is compatible with LUL, DLR and
every other TOC? * The problems you quote give you examples to hang off
these questions.

I would be astonished if you get a coherent and plausible response from
any TOC. I would also suggest you ask the same questions of ATOC and
Rail Settlement Plan - they are supposed to "control" these sorts of
industry wide issues. *If you do get a response then I would love to
read it on here - assuming you are willing to share it.

With regards to the magnetic stripe being divided between having an
LUL portion and an as yet unused BR (now NR) portion - this is
something you've mentioned in a good number of past posts, but I'm
just wondering if you could possibly flesh it out a little bit - some
example questions (which I now realise, having typed them out, sound
more like an inquisition as opposed to an opener to a casual
discussion!)...

(1) what kind of data is held on the LUL portion?
(2) what data did the system architects anticipate the BR portion
would hold?
(3) is the BR portion just a 'blank canvas', or is there some storage
structure that any data stored thereon would have to fall into line
with?
(4) did BR/ does NR do any ticket rewriting at all, or is that
basically off-limits as it would otherwise infringe on the LUL
portion?
(5) to what extent does LUL make use of the capacity for rewriting?
(6) pre-privatisation, did BR make any moves towards utilising their
portion of the stripe? Of course, they didn't have any gates (did
they?).

I'm tempted to ask one more... how many people in DfT Rail do you
think actually even comprehend this issue?! Given the funding they
allocate for gating, perhaps they should!

Lastly, how many funny looks do you get from rail staff if you show
them an all-lines rail rover? I'm just wondering for how many wouldn't
have seen one before.

(I hope you don't mind but I've taken the raw liberty of crossposting
this to the bear pit that is uk.railway!)

A search for Atoc sp0035 brings up a document about RJIS that has some
information on magnetic stripe encoding.