I hadn't noticed this. Not mincing words.

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=700

________________________________________

"Scrap OEPs now, says watchdog


London TravelWatch has called for the Oyster Extension Permits to be
scrapped.

Oyster Extension Permits, which were introduced by train companies
last week when Oyster Pay As You Go became available on national rail
services (successfully), are needed every time a passenger with a
zonal ticket on an Oystercard travels outside of their normal zones on
the railway.

Sharon Grant, Chair, London TravelWatch, said: “We are concerned that
passengers will be liable for penalty fares or fines as the permits
are difficult to understand and difficult to buy. Oyster PAYG is a
useful, convenient way of getting around London, but these permits are
the reverse of useful and convenient.”

Oyster Extension Permits have been hard for passengers to buy at
ticket machines, owing to technical problems for some train operators
and London TravelWatch has heard reports that not all train companies
are even enforcing them as they are so utterly bewildering for
passengers.

Sharon Grant, Chair, London TravelWatch said: “The Oyster Extension
Permit was a bad idea which is unnecessarily complicated, and it
should be dumped as soon as possible.”"

On Feb 5, 12:15*pm, MIG wrote:

I hadn't noticed this. *Not mincing words.

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=700

________________________________________

"Scrap OEPs now, says watchdog

London TravelWatch has called for the Oyster Extension Permits to be
scrapped.

Oyster Extension Permits, which were introduced by train companies
last week when Oyster Pay As You Go became available on national rail
services (successfully), are needed every time a passenger with a
zonal ticket on an Oystercard travels outside of their normal zones on
the railway.

Sharon Grant, Chair, London TravelWatch, said: “We are concerned that
passengers will be liable for penalty fares or fines as the permits
are difficult to understand and difficult to buy. Oyster PAYG is a
useful, convenient way of getting around London, but these permits are
the reverse of useful and convenient.”

Oyster Extension Permits have been hard for passengers to buy at
ticket machines, owing to technical problems for some train operators
and London TravelWatch has heard reports that not all train companies
are even enforcing them as they are so utterly bewildering for
passengers.

Sharon Grant, Chair, London TravelWatch said: “The Oyster Extension
Permit was a bad idea which is unnecessarily complicated, and it
should be dumped as soon as possible.”"


Yeah, saw that a few weeks ago - I think I'd read about Ms Grant's
comments elsewhere, so went to the LTW website so as to hear it from
the horse's mouth. Note also Peter Hendy's objection to the OEP system
as expressed in the latest TfL Board papers, describing it as an
"impediment to travel" and stating that TfL does not support it.

Given the fact that OEPs are not readily available from a great many
NR stations, I don't think any PFs that might be issued to anyone
travelling from said stations without an OEP would stand up to a
moment's scrutiny, so much so that I wonder if the PF would even be
issued in the first place. I'm certainly not going to go out of my way
to get an OEP if it's not available from my starting station (not sure
whether I'd be even bothered enough to descend into the bowels of
London Bridge to get an OEP from the Tube station ticket machines). Of
course putting this to the test might be hard, as it would involve
actually encountering someone doing revenue protection duties...

On 5 Feb, 12:50, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 12:15*pm, MIG wrote:





I hadn't noticed this. *Not mincing words.

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=700

________________________________________

"Scrap OEPs now, says watchdog

London TravelWatch has called for the Oyster Extension Permits to be
scrapped.

Oyster Extension Permits, which were introduced by train companies
last week when Oyster Pay As You Go became available on national rail
services (successfully), are needed every time a passenger with a
zonal ticket on an Oystercard travels outside of their normal zones on
the railway.

Sharon Grant, Chair, London TravelWatch, said: “We are concerned that
passengers will be liable for penalty fares or fines as the permits
are difficult to understand and difficult to buy. Oyster PAYG is a
useful, convenient way of getting around London, but these permits are
the reverse of useful and convenient.”

Oyster Extension Permits have been hard for passengers to buy at
ticket machines, owing to technical problems for some train operators
and London TravelWatch has heard reports that not all train companies
are even enforcing them as they are so utterly bewildering for
passengers.

Sharon Grant, Chair, London TravelWatch said: “The Oyster Extension
Permit was a bad idea which is unnecessarily complicated, and it
should be dumped as soon as possible.”"

Yeah, saw that a few weeks ago - I think I'd read about Ms Grant's
comments elsewhere, so went to the LTW website so as to hear it from
the horse's mouth. Note also Peter Hendy's objection to the OEP system
as expressed in the latest TfL Board papers, describing it as an
"impediment to travel" and stating that TfL does not support it.

Given the fact that OEPs are not readily available from a great many
NR stations, I don't think any PFs that might be issued to anyone
travelling from said stations without an OEP would stand up to a
moment's scrutiny, so much so that I wonder if the PF would even be
issued in the first place. I'm certainly not going to go out of my way
to get an OEP if it's not available from my starting station (not sure
whether I'd be even bothered enough to descend into the bowels of
London Bridge to get an OEP from the Tube station ticket machines). Of
course putting this to the test might be hard, as it would involve
actually encountering someone doing revenue protection duties...

I can't remember the last time I encountered such a thing on SET or
Southern. On SWT sometimes and on LM nearly every time. It'll be
those people doing a job ... think it begins with "g" ...

I think LM is a good bet for experimentation.

On Feb 5, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote:

On 5 Feb, 12:50, Mizter T wrote:

On Feb 5, 12:15*pm, MIG wrote:

I hadn't noticed this. *Not mincing words.

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=700

________________________________________

"Scrap OEPs now, says watchdog

London TravelWatch has called for the Oyster Extension Permits to be
scrapped.
[snip rest of LTW press release]

Yeah, saw that a few weeks ago - I think I'd read about Ms Grant's
comments elsewhere, so went to the LTW website so as to hear it from
the horse's mouth. Note also Peter Hendy's objection to the OEP system
as expressed in the latest TfL Board papers, describing it as an
"impediment to travel" and stating that TfL does not support it.

Given the fact that OEPs are not readily available from a great many
NR stations, I don't think any PFs that might be issued to anyone
travelling from said stations without an OEP would stand up to a
moment's scrutiny, so much so that I wonder if the PF would even be
issued in the first place. I'm certainly not going to go out of my way
to get an OEP if it's not available from my starting station (not sure
whether I'd be even bothered enough to descend into the bowels of
London Bridge to get an OEP from the Tube station ticket machines). Of
course putting this to the test might be hard, as it would involve
actually encountering someone doing revenue protection duties...

I can't remember the last time I encountered such a thing on SET or
Southern. *On SWT sometimes and on LM nearly every time. *It'll be
those people doing a job ... think it begins with "g" ...

I think LM is a good bet for experimentation.

I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of
London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let
the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of
course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling,
so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward
position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not
be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents
directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I
wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to
ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in
to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be
said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster
products, given the number of people it does bring through the door).

I suppose one argument that the TOCs could deploy would be that if an
OEP wasn't available (ticket machine and ticket office couldn't issue
them), *but* the ticket office was open, then the pax should buy a
standard paper extension ticket instead - though this would be a bit
more expensive than the equivalent (and automatically deducted) Oyster
PAYG fare for the extension. Though I think I'd still say stuff that!
(I dare say you might suggest some parallels with the old days pre-
PAYG expansion w.r.t. paper Travelcards and pricey paper ticket
extension fares, though I don't think the situations are directly
comparable.)

Re LM and experimentation - I'm not so sure it would be a good venue
for testing the waters actually, because Oyster PAYG was fully
available on LM between Euston, H&W and Watford Junction before the
great PAYG expansion of January gone and they obviously didn't have
any requirement for an OEP type arrangement back then. Plus all three
stations are gated too, though yes, LM use ungated platforms at
Euston. Also OEPs are not required for travel on the parallel London
Overground DC line service (LO doesn't count as NR for OEP and other
fare purposes), so I have my doubts as to whether OEPs are really a
requirement on this line, and maybe its just easier to say they are
for purposes of presenting a consistent picture across all NR lines in
London. And even if they are technically required, I rather suspect
that requirement might not be enforced in reality. Oh, and I don't
think LM guards automatically have the authority to issue PFs, do they?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:33:18 -0800 (PST),
Mizter T wrote:
Re LM and experimentation - I'm not so sure it would be a good venue
for testing the waters actually, because Oyster PAYG was fully
available on LM between Euston, H&W and Watford Junction before the
great PAYG expansion of January gone and they obviously didn't have
any requirement for an OEP type arrangement back then. Plus all three
stations are gated too, though yes, LM use ungated platforms at
Euston. Also OEPs are not required for travel on the parallel London
Overground DC line service (LO doesn't count as NR for OEP and other
fare purposes), so I have my doubts as to whether OEPs are really a
requirement on this line, and maybe its just easier to say they are
for purposes of presenting a consistent picture across all NR lines in
London. And even if they are technically required, I rather suspect
that requirement might not be enforced in reality. Oh, and I don't
think LM guards automatically have the authority to issue PFs, do they?

I'm pretty sure LM guards still don't have the ability to check oyster
cards at all so they can't even check whether PAYG is correctly touched
in or not, let alone whether there is an OEP present on a oyster season
ticket.

(As an aside I recently went back to a Gold Card for Watford
Junction-Euston instead of using PAYG. In the first week I managed to
twice use my oyster card - once "correctly" at both ends and a second
time when leaving the platform 16 at Euston where the "beep, beep" of
people touching their cards was irresistable and I had to join in. -
There would have been a third case about a month later except that after
the first two I moved my oyster card to my wallet instead of with my
season ticket. TfL have refunded the money after I sent them a
photocopy of my season ticket.)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

On 5 Feb, 15:33, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote:



On 5 Feb, 12:50, Mizter T wrote:

On Feb 5, 12:15*pm, MIG wrote:

I hadn't noticed this. *Not mincing words.

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=700

________________________________________

"Scrap OEPs now, says watchdog

London TravelWatch has called for the Oyster Extension Permits to be
scrapped.
[snip rest of LTW press release]

Yeah, saw that a few weeks ago - I think I'd read about Ms Grant's
comments elsewhere, so went to the LTW website so as to hear it from
the horse's mouth. Note also Peter Hendy's objection to the OEP system
as expressed in the latest TfL Board papers, describing it as an
"impediment to travel" and stating that TfL does not support it.

Given the fact that OEPs are not readily available from a great many
NR stations, I don't think any PFs that might be issued to anyone
travelling from said stations without an OEP would stand up to a
moment's scrutiny, so much so that I wonder if the PF would even be
issued in the first place. I'm certainly not going to go out of my way
to get an OEP if it's not available from my starting station (not sure
whether I'd be even bothered enough to descend into the bowels of
London Bridge to get an OEP from the Tube station ticket machines). Of
course putting this to the test might be hard, as it would involve
actually encountering someone doing revenue protection duties...

I can't remember the last time I encountered such a thing on SET or
Southern. *On SWT sometimes and on LM nearly every time. *It'll be
those people doing a job ... think it begins with "g" ...

I think LM is a good bet for experimentation.

I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of
London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let
the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of
course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling,
so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward
position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not
be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents
directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I
wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to
ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in
to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be
said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster
products, given the number of people it does bring through the door).

I suppose one argument that the TOCs could deploy would be that if an
OEP wasn't available (ticket machine and ticket office couldn't issue
them), *but* the ticket office was open, then the pax should buy a
standard paper extension ticket instead - though this would be a bit
more expensive than the equivalent (and automatically deducted) Oyster
PAYG fare for the extension. Though I think I'd still say stuff that!
(I dare say you might suggest some parallels with the old days pre-
PAYG expansion w.r.t. paper Travelcards and pricey paper ticket
extension fares, though I don't think the situations are directly
comparable.)

Re LM and experimentation - I'm not so sure it would be a good venue
for testing the waters actually, because Oyster PAYG was fully
available on LM between Euston, H&W and Watford Junction before the
great PAYG expansion of January gone and they obviously didn't have
any requirement for an OEP type arrangement back then. Plus all three
stations are gated too, though yes, LM use ungated platforms at


Five.... remember Bushey and Wembley Central.

Another factor is that London Midland ticket machines have not been
upgraded to issue OEPs.

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of
London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let
the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of
course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling,
so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward
position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not
be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents
directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I
wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to
ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in
to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be
said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster
products, given the number of people it does bring through the door).

I'm still struggling to envisage a typical journey which both requires an
OEP and starts at an NR station.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 5 Feb, 16:26, wrote:
In article
,

(Mizter T) wrote:
I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of
London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let
the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of
course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling,
so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward
position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not
be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents
directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I
wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to
ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in
to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be
said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster
products, given the number of people it does bring through the door).

I'm still struggling to envisage a typical journey which both requires an
OEP and starts at an NR station.

The majority I'd have thought, given that from Oyster's point of view,
the journey starts where you last touched in.

On Feb 5, 4:24*pm, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

On 5 Feb, 15:33, Mizter T wrote:

On Feb 5, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote:
[big snip]
I think LM is a good bet for experimentation.

I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of
London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let
the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of
course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling,
so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward
position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not
be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents
directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I
wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to
ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in
to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be
said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster
products, given the number of people it does bring through the door).

I suppose one argument that the TOCs could deploy would be that if an
OEP wasn't available (ticket machine and ticket office couldn't issue
them), *but* the ticket office was open, then the pax should buy a
standard paper extension ticket instead - though this would be a bit
more expensive than the equivalent (and automatically deducted) Oyster
PAYG fare for the extension. Though I think I'd still say stuff that!
(I dare say you might suggest some parallels with the old days pre-
PAYG expansion w.r.t. paper Travelcards and pricey paper ticket
extension fares, though I don't think the situations are directly
comparable.)

Re LM and experimentation - I'm not so sure it would be a good venue
for testing the waters actually, because Oyster PAYG was fully
available on LM between Euston, H&W and Watford Junction before the
great PAYG expansion of January gone and they obviously didn't have
any requirement for an OEP type arrangement back then. Plus all three
stations are gated too, though yes, LM use ungated platforms at

Five.... remember Bushey and Wembley Central.

Shoots, yes, of course, how could I forget poor old Bushey! Is the
station gated now? It wasn't a year or so ago.

Wembley Central only half counts in my book as hardly any LM trains
stop there (also the platforms they stop at are not within the gated
area).


Another factor is that London Midland ticket machines have not been
upgraded to issue OEPs.

Do they handle Oyster at all?

On 5 Feb, 17:10, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 4:24*pm, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:





On 5 Feb, 15:33, Mizter T wrote:

On Feb 5, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote:
[big snip]
I think LM is a good bet for experimentation.

I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of
London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let
the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of
course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling,
so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward
position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not
be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents
directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I
wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to
ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in
to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be
said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster
products, given the number of people it does bring through the door).

I suppose one argument that the TOCs could deploy would be that if an
OEP wasn't available (ticket machine and ticket office couldn't issue
them), *but* the ticket office was open, then the pax should buy a
standard paper extension ticket instead - though this would be a bit
more expensive than the equivalent (and automatically deducted) Oyster
PAYG fare for the extension. Though I think I'd still say stuff that!
(I dare say you might suggest some parallels with the old days pre-
PAYG expansion w.r.t. paper Travelcards and pricey paper ticket
extension fares, though I don't think the situations are directly
comparable.)

Re LM and experimentation - I'm not so sure it would be a good venue
for testing the waters actually, because Oyster PAYG was fully
available on LM between Euston, H&W and Watford Junction before the
great PAYG expansion of January gone and they obviously didn't have
any requirement for an OEP type arrangement back then. Plus all three
stations are gated too, though yes, LM use ungated platforms at

Five.... remember Bushey and Wembley Central.

Shoots, yes, of course, how could I forget poor old Bushey! Is the
station gated now? It wasn't a year or so ago.

Wembley Central only half counts in my book as hardly any LM trains
stop there (also the platforms they stop at are not within the gated
area).



Another factor is that London Midland ticket machines have not been
upgraded to issue OEPs.

Do they handle Oyster at all?


The machines at Euston have Oyster pads ... are they LO or LM though?