On 19 Feb, 20:59, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Feb 19, 5:56*pm, JS wrote:

System has no way of knowing whether journey was started within zones
of Travelcard or beyond, hence the charge.

The point I was making is that *wherever* you started your journey,
the "maximuum" fare you could possibly pay is that of the zones not
covered by your Travelcard, and IMHO that should be the penalty. I.e.
Given a z12 Travelcard, if you actually started your journey at
Canon's Park, but didn't touch in, being charged as having come from
Willesden Green would be the penalty. The principle should always be
that there should be no requirement to touch in within the zones where
your Travelcard is valid.

So, I have a Z3-4 on my Oyster card.
I make a journey without touching in but touch out at a Z4 station.
What should I be charged for?
A Z1-2?
A Z5-G?
TfL fare scale?
NR fare scale?
Through fare scale?
Hence the max fare charge

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:



On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone..
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6 Oyster single fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rate Oyster card
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

2) OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: £3.40 Off-Peak mixed travel maximum Oyster
fare deducted from payg balance
Touch out London Victoria: £1.90 "refunded" to payg balance.
I have paid the correct £1.50 extension fare and complied with the
Oyster on National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
OEP set to off ("removed")

3) No OEP set before touching in
No touch in at Battersea Park
Touch out London Victoria: £3.40 deducted from payg balance
I am liable to penalty fare / prosecution when the train leaves
Battersea Park

4) OEP set before touching in
No touch in Battersea Park
Touch out London Victoria: £3.40 deducted from payg balance
I am liable to penalty fare / prosecution when the train leaves
Battersea Park
OEP set to off

Hope this is helpful

In article
,
(JS) wrote:

Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares

That doesn't seem to stack up with my off-peak fare from Vauxhall to
Putney being half what I paid last year (£1.70 full price day single
before, 85p on Oyster with Senior Railcard now). The only snag is a small
delay so I pass the barrier after 19:00 rather than put a bike on a train
only after that time.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 21 Feb, 08:49, JS wrote:
On 19 Feb, 20:59, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 19, 5:56*pm, JS wrote:

System has no way of knowing whether journey was started within zones
of Travelcard or beyond, hence the charge.

The point I was making is that *wherever* you started your journey,
the "maximuum" fare you could possibly pay is that of the zones not
covered by your Travelcard, and IMHO that should be the penalty. I.e.
Given a z12 Travelcard, if you actually started your journey at
Canon's Park, but didn't touch in, being charged as having come from
Willesden Green would be the penalty. The principle should always be
that there should be no requirement to touch in within the zones where
your Travelcard is valid.

So, I have a Z3-4 on my Oyster card.
I make a journey without touching in but touch out at a Z4 station.
What should I be charged for?
A Z1-2?
A Z5-G?
TfL fare scale?
NR fare scale?
Through fare scale?
Hence the max fare charge

You don't get charged anything in that situation. Nor should you be.

On 21 Feb, 09:16, JS wrote:
On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:





On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6 Oyster single fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rate Oyster card
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.


Where did you get this from? Look forward to seeing that one in court.

On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:
On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:





On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6 Oyster single fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rate Oyster card
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.


Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

wrote:
In article
,
(JS) wrote:

Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares

That doesn't seem to stack up with my off-peak fare from Vauxhall to
Putney being half what I paid last year (£1.70 full price day single
before, 85p on Oyster with Senior Railcard now). The only snag is a
small delay so I pass the barrier after 19:00 rather than put a bike
on a train only after that time.

Those are the PAYG 'entry charges' for a travelcard enabled Oyster Card
Colin, not the actual fares that would be charged after eventual touch out.

That is how PAYG works normally - with a charge and refund .

Paul S

On Feb 21, 8:49*am, JS wrote:
On 19 Feb, 20:59, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 19, 5:56*pm, JS wrote:

System has no way of knowing whether journey was started within zones
of Travelcard or beyond, hence the charge.

The point I was making is that *wherever* you started your journey,
the "maximuum" fare you could possibly pay is that of the zones not
covered by your Travelcard, and IMHO that should be the penalty. I.e.
Given a z12 Travelcard, if you actually started your journey at
Canon's Park, but didn't touch in, being charged as having come from
Willesden Green would be the penalty. The principle should always be
that there should be no requirement to touch in within the zones where
your Travelcard is valid.

So, I have a Z3-4 on my Oyster card.
I make a journey without touching in but touch out at a Z4 station.
What should I be charged for?
A Z1-2?
A Z5-G?
TfL fare scale?
NR fare scale?
Through fare scale?
Hence the max fare charge

Ah, what I managed to edit out of my example was the
destination...which was supposed to be Stanmore.

However, in your example, if you didn't touch in, but touched out in
z4 with a z4 Travelcard you're not charged anything, which isn't the
point I was making. I was referring to extending your journey out of
your zones without touching in. In that specific scenario, I think
charging from the validity of your zones is quite reasonable, as any
loss should be minimal.

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(JS) wrote:

Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares

That doesn't seem to stack up with my off-peak fare from Vauxhall to
Putney being half what I paid last year (£1.70 full price day single
before, 85p on Oyster with Senior Railcard now). The only snag is a
small delay so I pass the barrier after 19:00 rather than put a bike
on a train only after that time.

Those are the PAYG 'entry charges' for a travelcard enabled Oyster
Card Colin, not the actual fares that would be charged after
eventual touch out.

That is how PAYG works normally - with a charge and refund .

OIC.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Mizter T wrote:

Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ional-rail.pdf

---quote---
3.6 When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster
card on the yellow card
reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving
from; and at the end of your
journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still
use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working
provided that your
Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked
instead to show your
Oyster card (and photocard where needed).

And for those who are quibbling about 'should' rather than 'must' in the
above, I just found the following in the new TfL Conditions of Carriage:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f-carriage.pdf

6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card

6.6.1. When you use Underground, London Overground and National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader (see
clause 6.8.) at both the start and the end of your journey. If the
ticket gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card
on the yellow card reader.

You can use the Travelcard season ticket on your Oyster card provided it
is available and valid at the time you travel and any pay as you go
balance on your Oyster card is not in debit. Should any pay as you go
balance on your Oyster card be in debit, you must clear the debit before
you use your Travelcard season ticket.

Provided that the season ticket on your Oyster card is available and
valid at the time you travel, you can still use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working.
You may be asked instead to show your Oyster card (and photocard where
needed).

and

6.6.7. When you use a bus, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow
card reader (see clause 6.8.) as you board the bus. If you board the bus
without having touched your Oyster card on the yellow card reader or
having paid a cash single fare, you may be liable to a Penalty fare or
you may be prosecuted. Special arrangements apply if you are
accompanying a wheelchair user (see clause 13.2.1.) and to users of
double buggies (see clause 13.2.5.). If the bus has a conductor, when
asked, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader on
his/her ticket machine. If the yellow card reader on a bus or a
conductor’s ticket machine is not working, you must show your Oyster
card to the driver or conductor.