On 21 Feb, 15:33, Roy Badami wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-...

---quote---
3.6 When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster
card on the yellow card
reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving
from; and at the end of your
journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still
use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working
provided that your
Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked
instead to show your
Oyster card (and photocard where needed).

And for those who are quibbling about 'should' rather than 'must' in the
above, I just found the following in the new TfL Conditions of Carriage:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f-carriage.pdf

6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card

6.6.1. When you use Underground, London Overground and National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader (see
clause 6.8.) at both the start and the end of your journey. If the
ticket gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card
on the yellow card reader.

You can use the Travelcard season ticket on your Oyster card provided it
is available and valid at the time you travel and any pay as you go
balance on your Oyster card is not in debit. Should any pay as you go
balance on your Oyster card be in debit, you must clear the debit before
you use your Travelcard season ticket.

Provided that the season ticket on your Oyster card is available and
valid at the time you travel, you can still use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working.
You may be asked instead to show your Oyster card (and photocard where
needed).

and

6.6.7. When you use a bus, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow
card reader (see clause 6.8.) as you board the bus. If you board the bus
without having touched your Oyster card on the yellow card reader or
having paid a cash single fare, you may be liable to a Penalty fare or
you may be prosecuted. Special arrangements apply if you are
accompanying a wheelchair user (see clause 13.2.1.) and to users of
double buggies (see clause 13.2.5.). If the bus has a conductor, when
asked, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader on
his/her ticket machine. If the yellow card reader on a bus or a
conductor’s ticket machine is not working, you must show your Oyster
card to the driver or conductor.

I haven't read anything into the "should" and "must", but I am
convinced that there can't be any intention of penalty-faring anyone
who has a valid travelcard within their zones. It must be to
encourage people to be in the habit. But I look forward to the court
case with glee.

However, the bus bit is completely bonkers, seeing as you can't extend
a bus journey beyond the travelcard availability.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 08:12:19 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

However, the bus bit is completely bonkers, seeing as you can't extend
a bus journey beyond the travelcard availability.

I can see the point (on non-bendy buses) to verify everyone has a
valid ticket. It's easier for the driver to listen for a beeb than
checking a photocard flashed very quickly.

On 21 Feb, 16:25, Ivor The Engine wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 08:12:19 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
However, the bus bit is completely bonkers, seeing as you can't extend
a bus journey beyond the travelcard availability.

I can see the point (on non-bendy buses) to verify everyone has a
valid ticket. *It's easier for the driver to listen for a beeb than
checking a photocard flashed very quickly.

Oh, of course. And it's no problem doing that on a straight bus, but
being liable to a penalty fare?

I did wonder when it was discussed previously whether this was to
prepare for debendification.

On Feb 21, 3:33*pm, Roy Badami wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-...

---quote---
3.6 When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster
card on the yellow card
reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving
from; and at the end of your
journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still
use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working
provided that your
Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked
instead to show your
Oyster card (and photocard where needed).

And for those who are quibbling about 'should' rather than 'must' in the
above, I just found the following in the new TfL Conditions of Carriage:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f-carriage.pdf


Of course, this reads differently to the text in the Oyster Conditions
of Carriage on National Rail, valid from the same date.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ional-rail.pdf

where the wording is should.

I doubt that could be a successful attempt to enforce one in
preference to the other. Indeed, if travelling on National Rail, why
would a user even have to worry about the Conditions of Carriage for
TfL.

On 21 Feb, 16:52, Andy wrote:
On Feb 21, 3:33*pm, Roy Badami wrote:





Mizter T wrote:
Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-....

---quote---
3.6 When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster
card on the yellow card
reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving
from; and at the end of your
journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still
use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working
provided that your
Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked
instead to show your
Oyster card (and photocard where needed).

And for those who are quibbling about 'should' rather than 'must' in the
above, I just found the following in the new TfL Conditions of Carriage:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f-carriage.pdf

Of course, this reads differently to the text in the Oyster Conditions
of Carriage on National Rail, valid from the same date.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-...

where the wording is should.

I doubt that could be a successful attempt to enforce one in
preference to the other. Indeed, if travelling on National Rail, why
would a user even have to worry about the Conditions of Carriage for
TfL.-

It also contradicts the NRCoC, because they say that an electronic
ticket has the same validity as a paper one, and you don't have to
touch in (or go through any extra non-transactional hoops) with a
paper one to avoid a penalty fare.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 08:31:23 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

Oh, of course. And it's no problem doing that on a straight bus, but
being liable to a penalty fare?

No, that is silly. Like you, I would look forward to the first court
case.


I did wonder when it was discussed previously whether this was to
prepare for debendification.

Could be. Certainly in the central area, everyone boarding a bus
needs some form of advance authority, be it a ticket from the machine
at the stop, an Oyster card or a (Freedom etc.) pass.

In article ,
lid (Ivor The Engine) wrote:

Could be. Certainly in the central area, everyone boarding a bus
needs some form of advance authority, be it a ticket from the machine
at the stop, an Oyster card or a (Freedom etc.) pass.

When will they be able to read national bus passes?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:
On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:



On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything..)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare..

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

On 21 Feb, 13:53, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Feb 21, 8:49*am, JS wrote:



On 19 Feb, 20:59, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 19, 5:56*pm, JS wrote:

System has no way of knowing whether journey was started within zones
of Travelcard or beyond, hence the charge.

The point I was making is that *wherever* you started your journey,
the "maximuum" fare you could possibly pay is that of the zones not
covered by your Travelcard, and IMHO that should be the penalty. I.e.
Given a z12 Travelcard, if you actually started your journey at
Canon's Park, but didn't touch in, being charged as having come from
Willesden Green would be the penalty. The principle should always be
that there should be no requirement to touch in within the zones where
your Travelcard is valid.

So, I have a Z3-4 on myOystercard.
I make a journey without touching in but touch out at a Z4 station.
What should I be charged for?
A Z1-2?
A Z5-G?
TfL fare scale?
NR fare scale?
Through fare scale?
Hence the max fare charge

Ah, what I managed to edit out of my example was the
destination...which was supposed to be Stanmore.

However, in your example, if you didn't touch in, but touched out in
z4 with a z4 Travelcard you're not charged anything, which isn't the
point I was making. I was referring to extending your journey out of
your zones without touching in. In that specific scenario, I think
charging from the validity of your zones is quite reasonable, as any
loss should be minimal.

Fine
I have a Z3-4 Travelcard
I don't touch in
I touch out in zone 1
What should I be charged?
Z1-2?
Z1-2 plus 5-G (or 1-G if that is less)?
Tfl?
NR?
through?
Peak?
Off-Peak?

Hence the standard max fare charges
:-)

On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:
On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:



On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. *The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

You will find that C2C have been enforcing the OEP requirement when
customer touch out at Grays. Rather than deduct the extension fare,
the gates can be configured to alert the staff.