On Feb 22, 11:44*am, Ivor The Engine
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:42:17 +0000, David Hansen

wrote:
The logic is that on a bus or tram one touches the yellow pad on
entering a bus or tram, on a train one touches the yellow pad on
entering and leaving the railway. Too complicated already, but at
least understandable.

Then something else is added for using some trains. Illogical.

Trains for which you don't have a valid ticket, unless you buy one.
Which by this delivery system means adding it electronically to your
card. *Or. as people with season tickets would do elsewhere in the UK,
going to a station[1] and buying a paper ticket for the part of the
journey not covered.

[1] or online, or on train, etc etc. *

The system is complex (although the way it functions is not actually
really that complicated), and I suspect from David's comments that he
doesn't have a full appreciation of how it all fits together - that's
not to have a go at him, merely agreeing with you that in this
instance his interjection is, er, wrong.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:07:18 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Mizter T
wrote this:-

The system is complex (although the way it functions is not actually
really that complicated), and I suspect from David's comments that he
doesn't have a full appreciation of how it all fits together

How it all fits together is irrelevant to the logic which, from the
point of view of the passenger, is as I described.

Presumably that is why, in this or another thread, someone has
mentioned how few people jump through the hoops they are supposed to
jump through in order to use this gadget on some trains, but not
others. Some may decide that they are all trying to cheat the
railways out of money, but I imagine that only a small proportion
are trying to do this and most are simply doing what has become
natural for them to do.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Feb 22, 12:28*pm, David Hansen
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:07:18 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Mizter T
wrote this:-

The system is complex (although the way it functions is not actually
really that complicated), and I suspect from David's comments that he
doesn't have a full appreciation of how it all fits together

How it all fits together is irrelevant to the logic which, from the
point of view of the passenger, is as I described.

Presumably that is why, in this or another thread, someone has
mentioned how few people jump through the hoops they are supposed to
jump through in order to use this gadget on some trains, but not
others. Some may decide that they are all trying to cheat the
railways out of money, but I imagine that only a small proportion
are trying to do this and most are simply doing what has become
natural for them to do.

It's not about this being a (notional) requirement for "some trains" -
it's not about any specific trains or routes having a special
requirement, it's about what a passenger who holds a zonal season
ticket (a Travelcard) is supposed to do when they are starting from
somewhere where their season ticket is valid, but then travelling out
of the area covered by that season ticket to a destination that's
nonetheless within the PAYG-area (which is the London Fare zones plus
Watford Junction and some c2c stations to the east of London). In such
cases a passenger supposedly has to get an OEP before they start their
journey.

Therefore the rail routes to which this supposed requirement applies
are entirely dependent on what zones are covered by any one individual
passenger's season Travelcard.

And no, I'm not defending it, it's all rather daft and will I think
fall flat in its arse before too long.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:54:46 -0800 (PST)
Andy wrote:
If thats the case then how come you can get a penalty "fare" next time
you touch in if you forgot to touch out? I don't know of many people who
pay a fare for a journey they made the previous day or even weeks before.

Its a fine.


That's not a penalty fare though, that's an uncompleted journey.

And given you get charged maximum fare the difference is...?

B2003

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:01:42 -0800 (PST)
Mizter T wrote:
The charge, fine, whatever you want to call it is thus levied
immediately, it's not taken the next day or whenever the next time the
passenger travels.

The end result is what matters , not the specifics of how the system works.
If you don't touch out you end up out of pocket.

B2003

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:41:51 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Mizter T
wrote this:-

It's not about this being a (notional) requirement for "some trains" -
it's not about any specific trains or routes having a special
requirement, it's about what a passenger who holds a zonal season
ticket (a Travelcard) is supposed to do when they are starting from
somewhere where their season ticket is valid, but then travelling out
of the area covered by that season ticket to a destination that's
nonetheless within the PAYG-area

So, if a passenger has one of these season tickets, say for zones 1
and 2, on their Oyster contraption they are supposed to do something
more than touch it on the yellow gadgets at each end if they get on
the train at say Oxford Circus and get off at say
Harrow-on-the-Hill, if they go via Baker Street? Sounds unlikely to
me.

If I understand it correctly were they to make the same journey via
Marylebone they would need to do something different? Illogical, or
as you say rather daft.






--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 04:25:28PM +0000, Ivor The Engine wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 08:12:19 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:
However, the bus bit is completely bonkers, seeing as you can't extend
a bus journey beyond the travelcard availability.
I can see the point (on non-bendy buses) to verify everyone has a
valid ticket. It's easier for the driver to listen for a beeb than
checking a photocard flashed very quickly.

Of course, he has to be able to do that anyway for paper travelcards.
Not that they ever bother.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

Graecum est; non legitur

On 22 Feb, 12:46, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:54:46 -0800 (PST)

Andy wrote:
If thats the case then how come you can get a penalty "fare" next time
you touch in if you forgot to touch out? I don't know of many people who
pay a fare for a journey they made the previous day or even weeks before.

Its a fine.

That's not a penalty fare though, that's an uncompleted journey.

And given you get charged maximum fare the difference is...?


The difference being that, for TfL, the penalty fare is £50 (reduced
to £25 if paid within 21 days); the maximum Oyster fare is
considerably less.

On 22 Feb, 09:33, JS wrote:
Fine
I have a Z3-4 Travelcard
I don't touch in
I touch out in zone 1
What should I be charged?
Z1-2?
Z1-2 plus 5-G (or 1-G if that is less)?
Tfl?
NR?
through?
Peak?
Off-Peak?

Hence the standard max fare charges
:-)



Personally, as I said before, I would say the current max fare charge,
less the z34 fare. Btw, where are these fares shown? I've spent the
last 10 minutes looking for them for example-generating...but can't
find them anywhere!

On Feb 22, 1:01*pm, David Hansen
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:41:51 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Mizter T
wrote this:-

It's not about this being a (notional) requirement for "some trains" -
it's not about any specific trains or routes having a special
requirement, it's about what a passenger who holds a zonal season
ticket (a Travelcard) is supposed to do when they are starting from
somewhere where their season ticket is valid, but then travelling out
of the area covered by that season ticket to a destination that's
nonetheless within the PAYG-area

So, if a passenger has one of these season tickets, say for zones 1
and 2, on their Oyster contraption they are supposed to do something
more than touch it on the yellow gadgets at each end if they get on
the train at say Oxford Circus and get off at say
Harrow-on-the-Hill, if they go via Baker Street? Sounds unlikely to
me.

If I understand it correctly were they to make the same journey via
Marylebone they would need to do something different? Illogical, or
as you say rather daft.

Ok, yeah, there is a difference between LU and NR trains, so in that
context your comment about "some trains" is quite valid (when those
"some trains" equate to NR trains and routes) - my apologies.

As you say, technically speaking if one was to go via Marylebone and
NR/ Chiltern then an OEP would be required.

(Given that PAYG was accepted on all Chiltern routes within the zones
before 2010, I have my doubts as to whether Chiltern would really be
too bothered about anyone doing that though.