On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:



On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone..
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6 Oyster single fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rate Oyster card
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

2) OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: £3.40 Off-Peak mixed travel maximum Oyster
fare deducted from payg balance
Touch out London Victoria: £1.90 "refunded" to payg balance.
I have paid the correct £1.50 extension fare and complied with the
Oyster on National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
OEP set to off ("removed")

3) No OEP set before touching in
No touch in at Battersea Park
Touch out London Victoria: £3.40 deducted from payg balance
I am liable to penalty fare / prosecution when the train leaves
Battersea Park

4) OEP set before touching in
No touch in Battersea Park
Touch out London Victoria: £3.40 deducted from payg balance
I am liable to penalty fare / prosecution when the train leaves
Battersea Park
OEP set to off

Hope this is helpful

In article
,
(JS) wrote:

Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares

That doesn't seem to stack up with my off-peak fare from Vauxhall to
Putney being half what I paid last year (£1.70 full price day single
before, 85p on Oyster with Senior Railcard now). The only snag is a small
delay so I pass the barrier after 19:00 rather than put a bike on a train
only after that time.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:
In article
,
(JS) wrote:

Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares

That doesn't seem to stack up with my off-peak fare from Vauxhall to
Putney being half what I paid last year (£1.70 full price day single
before, 85p on Oyster with Senior Railcard now). The only snag is a
small delay so I pass the barrier after 19:00 rather than put a bike
on a train only after that time.

Those are the PAYG 'entry charges' for a travelcard enabled Oyster Card
Colin, not the actual fares that would be charged after eventual touch out.

That is how PAYG works normally - with a charge and refund .

Paul S

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(JS) wrote:

Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares

That doesn't seem to stack up with my off-peak fare from Vauxhall to
Putney being half what I paid last year (£1.70 full price day single
before, 85p on Oyster with Senior Railcard now). The only snag is a
small delay so I pass the barrier after 19:00 rather than put a bike
on a train only after that time.

Those are the PAYG 'entry charges' for a travelcard enabled Oyster
Card Colin, not the actual fares that would be charged after
eventual touch out.

That is how PAYG works normally - with a charge and refund .

OIC.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 21 Feb, 09:16, JS wrote:
On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:





On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6 Oyster single fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rate Oyster card
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.


Where did you get this from? Look forward to seeing that one in court.

On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:
On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:





On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6 Oyster single fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rate Oyster card
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.


Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:
On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:



On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything..)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare..

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:
On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:



On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. *The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

You will find that C2C have been enforcing the OEP requirement when
customer touch out at Grays. Rather than deduct the extension fare,
the gates can be configured to alert the staff.

On 22 Feb, 09:36, JS wrote:
On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:





On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:

On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

On 22 Feb, 09:56, MIG wrote:
On 22 Feb, 09:36, JS wrote:



On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:

On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:

On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. *The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

You will find that C2C have been enforcing the OEP requirement when
customer touch out at Grays. *Rather than deduct the extension fare,
the gates can be configured to alert the staff.

So they'd rather prevent people from paying their fare so that they
can catch them out? *That is only physically possible if they are
touching out.

I remain disgusted by the general attitude of the railways that it's
acceptable to minimise opportunities to pay the correct fares and put
all the resources into catching people out.

How the hell can the railways compete with roads when they criminalise
rail travel in this way? *I **** on them. *I am really f*cking
disgusted with everything that's coming out of the introduction ofOysteron NR. *Too angry to contribute to any more discussion (a great
relief I expect).

I think you are attributing intent where there is none.
A dozen separate companies
Oyster run by a private consortium on TfL's behalf
hundreds of ticketing agreements
millions of daily users
incompetence
Prestige not able to cope with the complexity of fares
etc etc
in the scheme of things though?
not really life and death stuff
:-)