An OEP is needed when a card holder has both a Travelcard season
ticket and Pay-as-you-Go credit on their Oyster card and wishes to
travel from a station within the validity of their Travelcard season
ticket to a station within the Travelcard zones but not within the
validity of their Travelcard season ticket.

Not for travel on the tube, surely? I thought you always used to just
touch in and out and it automatically charged you the correct fare? Or
has that changed?

So presumably the above only applies to journeys on National Rail?

What about journeys part on the tube and part on National Rail? What
about London Overground?

Assuming that the above quote is an oversimplification, where is the
actual rule stated?

If the journey is made without an OEP, and the card holder touches in
and out, then the correct fare is charged.

Right, that's the whole point of smartcard ticketing. So that's just
like it's always been, then?

In all these cases, the holder is liable to a
Penalty Fare if challenged when outside the validity of the season
ticket.

Hang on, have I misread that, or is someone seriously saying that you
can now be issued with a penalty fare for paying the *correct* fare for
the journey.

Despite this, London Travelwatch have received a
complaint where a passenger with a Zone 1-6 Travelcard season ticket
on their Oyster card failed to touch in when travelling within these
zones and received a Penalty Fare.

Under what circumstances would a Zone 1-6 Travelcard *not* be valid
within Zones 1-6? Now I'm really confused.

How are customers supposed to understand any of this? I'm now quite
thoroughly confused...

-roy

On Feb 20, 11:35*am, Roy Badami wrote:

An OEP is needed when a card holder has both a Travelcard season
ticket and Pay-as-you-Go credit on their Oyster card and wishes to
travel from a station within the validity of their Travelcard season
ticket to a station within the Travelcard zones but not within the
validity of their Travelcard season ticket.

Not for travel on the tube, surely? *I thought you always used to just
touch in and out and it automatically charged you the correct fare? *Or
has that changed?

No, it hasn't changed - OEPs are not required for LU, DLR or London
Overground journeys.


So presumably the above only applies to journeys on National Rail?

Correct.


What about journeys part on the tube and part on National Rail? *What
about London Overground?

If a journey is part NR, then an OEP is still required. OEPs are not
required on London Overground network (which these days for ticketing
purposes acts as if it's part of the LU network - though of course NR
ticketing validities continue to apply, IYSWIM - the two run side by
side).


Assuming that the above quote is an oversimplification, where is the
actual rule stated?

The quote was in the context of Oyster PAYG on NR, because London
TravelWatch were discussing OEPs.

The rules are stated on the TfL webpage he
"How to use a Travelcard and pay as you go together on National Rail"
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oyster...aspx#section-5

The specific 'letter of the law' w.r.t. the rules is contained in both
the TfL conditions of carriage, and the new "Oyster Conditions of Use
on National rail services" - both available here coz I ain't trawling
through them now!:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/899.aspx


If the journey is made without an OEP, and the card holder touches in
and out, then the correct fare is charged.

Right, that's the whole point of smartcard ticketing. *So that's just
like it's always been, then?

Yes.


In all these cases, the holder is liable to a
Penalty Fare if challenged when outside the validity of the season
ticket.

Hang on, have I misread that, or is someone seriously saying that you
can now be issued with a penalty fare for paying the *correct* fare for
the journey.

Yes, supposedly. The basic issue here is that the TOCs are concerned
about someone starting their journey within their Travelcard's zonal
validity, then travelling to somewhere outside their zonal validity
but still within the zones - they don't see that the pax has any
incentive to then touch-out at the end of that journey to pay the
correct fare (i.e. the PAYG extension fare), which is a particular
issue at NR stations given that the majority are ungated.

What an OEP does is to switch on the 'entry charge' system that
normally only applies to pure PAYG journeys - thus with an OEP, when
an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard is touched-in at a station
within the Travelcard's zonal validity, the 'entry charge' is debited
from the card. The passenger thus has the incentive to touch-out at
the end of the journey whereupon the correct fare will be charged (by
means of refunding the entry charge minus the appropriate extension
fare) - if the passenger does not do this, then they'd be hit with the
full 'entry charge' (which is actually less for a multi-modal journey
- i.e. Travelcard plus PAYG - than a pure PAYG journey, but that's a
detail).

An OEP is thus a signifier of intent - it shows that the passenger is
intending to pay the correct fare at their destination by touching-out
at the far end. It's basically there to satisfy RPIs that one is doing
things 'properly'.

However, as has been discussed already in other threads, the whole
system rather falls flat on its arse because OEPs are not readily
available from the majority of NR stations in London. It's hard to see
a Penalty Fare issued to someone who didn't have an OEP because they
started from a station where OEPs weren't readily available standing
up to the slightest challenge.


Despite this, London Travelwatch have received a
complaint where a passenger with a Zone 1-6 Travelcard season ticket
on their Oyster card failed to touch in when travelling within these
zones and received a Penalty Fare.

Under what circumstances would a Zone 1-6 Travelcard *not* be valid
within Zones 1-6? *Now I'm really confused.

It's a screw up on the part of the RPIs who issued the PF. Whilst the
rules do technically state that a passenger should touch-in when using
an Oyster card even when it's loaded with a Travelcard, they don't
make out it's a do-or-die situation (I think the wording is "should"
rather than "must" - and only if there's an Oyster validator at the
starting station.)

In all likelihood it seems like the RPIs didn't really know what they
were doing - they were probably operating under the misapprehension
that every Oyster card should now be validated, regardless of whether
it was being used in PAYG or Travelcard mode.

*If* the pax in question was travelling from say Fenchurch Street out
to Grays - in PAYG-land but outside zones 1-6 - then they should
ensure that they touch-in beforehand, as their journey will be covered
by a mix of Travelcard/PAYG. In this situation they could be subject
to a PF.


How are customers supposed to understand any of this? *I'm now quite
thoroughly confused...

The whole OEP concept causes confusion.

Thanks for the explanations and references. I think I (kind of)
understand now. I'll go off and read the Oyster terms and conditions now...

If a journey is part NR, then an OEP is still required. OEPs are not
required on London Overground network (which these days for ticketing
purposes acts as if it's part of the LU network - though of course NR
ticketing validities continue to apply, IYSWIM - the two run side by
side).

But if on an NR+tube journey the NR part of the journey is wholy within
the area covered by the travelcard, and it's only the tube part of the
journey that goes outside, I'm thinking maybe an OEP isn't necessary?
Or does the fact that NR was involved at all mean an OEP is required?

It's a screw up on the part of the RPIs who issued the PF. Whilst the
rules do technically state that a passenger should touch-in when using
an Oyster card even when it's loaded with a Travelcard, they don't
make out it's a do-or-die situation (I think the wording is "should"
rather than "must" - and only if there's an Oyster validator at the
starting station.)

Oh, I'd always (mis)understood that one *didn't* need to touch in with a
travelcard, e.g. when boarding a bendybus? Or has this always been
required?

Is it/has it always been required on DLR?

-roy

On Feb 20, 12:52*pm, Roy Badami wrote:

Thanks for the explanations and references. *I think I (kind of)
understand now. *I'll go off and read the Oyster terms and conditions now...

If a journey is part NR, then an OEP is still required. OEPs are not
required on London Overground network (which these days for ticketing
purposes acts as if it's part of the LU network - though of course NR
ticketing validities continue to apply, IYSWIM - the two run side by
side).

But if on an NR+tube journey the NR part of the journey is wholy within
the area covered by the travelcard, and it's only the tube part of the
journey that goes outside, I'm thinking maybe an OEP isn't necessary?
Or does the fact that NR was involved at all mean an OEP is required?

No, my understanding is that it wouldn't be necessary if the NR leg
was wholly covered by the Travelcard's zonal validity - e.g. if a
Travelcard holder for zones 3&4 could travel from Richmond (z4) to
Wimbledon (z3) and then change onto the District line to go to Fulham
Broadway (z2), I don't see any requirement for an OEP. If that
passenger was travelling on NR/SWT all the way to Waterloo (z1) then
an OEP is supposedly required.

(I say 'supposedly' because OEPs can be hard to get - though they
should actually be available at Richmond from the ticket office, as it
'does' Oyster, but a passenger starting at North Sheen would probably
be unable to get one from the station.)


It's a screw up on the part of the RPIs who issued the PF. Whilst the
rules do technically state that a passenger should touch-in when using
an Oyster card even when it's loaded with a Travelcard, they don't
make out it's a do-or-die situation (I think the wording is "should"
rather than "must" - and only if there's an Oyster validator at the
starting station.)

Oh, I'd always (mis)understood that one *didn't* need to touch in with a
travelcard, e.g. when boarding a bendybus? *Or has this always been
required?

Is it/has it always been required on DLR?

I think there's a bit of a fudge here. I *think* the Oyster small
print has always said Oyster card users (regardless of PAYG or
Travelcard) were supposed to touch-in, but the practice on the DLR and
on bendybuses is that only PAYG users are told they have to touch-in -
the signage certainly supports this latter interpretation.

I remember finding a comment being made by Mayor Ken to the effect
that there was no need to hinder pax who held a Travelcard/ Bus Pass
(as appropriate) on Oyster by making it compulsory to touch-in - I
can't recall who he was making the comments to, it was in an official
document, minutes of a meeting I think but not sure what meeting, but
I'll try and dig it up at some point.

I've certainly had my unvalidated season Travelcard or Bus Pass
accepted on bendybuses as being valid without comment when inspected
by bus RPIs, but I think I recall someone saying they were once told
that they were supposed to validate it when they got inspected (was
that on a bendybus? I can't remember).

In message
, at
04:27:03 on Sat, 20 Feb 2010, Mizter T remarked:
However, as has been discussed already in other threads, the whole
system rather falls flat on its arse because OEPs are not readily
available from the majority of NR stations in London.

The obvious answer is a special lane on the ticket gates at the NR
stations marked "Touch in *and* collect OEP".

If course, it wouldn't matter if some people collected an OEP that they
didn't use (or would it... we should ask Alice, or at least the Mad
Hatter, about that).

And if the station doesn't have barriers to access the platforms, then
it shouldn't be in the Oyster scheme in the first place!!
--
Roland Perry

On further reflection, it does seem to me to be incredibly
counter-intuitive that they've managed to create a situation where,
effectively, a journey that is perfectly legal for someone who *doesn't*
have a Travelcard becomes *illegal* if you buy a Travelcard.

It's almost as if the Travelcard is acting as an anti-ticket in this
context.

-roy

In message , Roland Perry
writes

And if the station doesn't have barriers to access the platforms, then
it shouldn't be in the Oyster scheme in the first place!!

That would effectively spell the end of Oyster on National Rail, as the
majority of NR stations within the zones are ungated.
--
Paul Terry

Roy Badami wrote:

Oh, I'd always (mis)understood that one *didn't* need to touch in with a
travelcard, e.g. when boarding a bendybus? Or has this always been
required?

Is it/has it always been required on DLR?

I've had my untouched in season ticket checked on both a number of times and
it's never been a problem. Without knowing the details of the situation I'd
guess this particular case is down to a new and/or National Rail inspector
not understanding the finer points of the rules, especially as too many
people and posters use "Oyster" when they mean PAYG.

At peak times the volume of pax on both is such that frankly forcing
everyone with season tickets to touch in is going to cause problems,
especially on the bendy buses where they're ram-packed and sometimes newly
boarded people can't physically reach the readers. The DLR stations tend to
have only a few standalone readers which are rarely placed in such a way
that every passenger can easily touch out.

Roland Perry wrote:

The obvious answer is a special lane on the ticket gates at the NR
stations marked "Touch in *and* collect OEP".

Unfortunately the average National Rail station has a small number of
readers - Wanstead Park has one for each platform by separate stairs. Forest
Gate has only two in the main hall and the crowds are bad enough there. I
think there's only a single reader on platform 4, which is accessed
separately by the street.

And if the station doesn't have barriers to access the platforms, then it
shouldn't be in the Oyster scheme in the first place!!

Many stations just aren't the right design for barriers. The layout at
Forest Gate is such that there's no room on the present configuration (and
for one platform there's nothering enclosed at all).

Surely the way that Oyster works is that you tap-in and you tap-out,
if you have a travelcard and PAYG element then the PAYG debit is
calculated at exit based on the non-travelcard portion of the
journey. Yes, OK for LT where there are barriers, or the DLR where
there are validators. But not OK for suburban rail where there may be
neither, particularly at stations outside the zones.

Is my thinking wrong? Presumably the only purpose behind an OEP is to
effectively allow a ticket machine (ATVM or TOM) to "tap-in" a PAYG
card at a station that has neither gates nor validators?