Subject says it all. Is London Overground part of the National Rail,
network, or not?

The observation that triggered the question was seeing, on one of the
maps on board a tube train, a station showing an interchange opportunity
with London Overground, but *not* showing the National Rail symbol
against the station name. Which would seem to imply not.

-roy

On 20.02.10 12:01, Roy Badami wrote:
Subject says it all. Is London Overground part of the National Rail,
network, or not?

The observation that triggered the question was seeing, on one of the
maps on board a tube train, a station showing an interchange opportunity
with London Overground, but *not* showing the National Rail symbol
against the station name. Which would seem to imply not.

-roy
It is part of National Rail, but TfL has the franchise for whatever
number of years.

On Feb 20, 12:16*pm, "
wrote:
On 20.02.10 12:01, Roy Badami wrote: Subject says it all. *Is London Overground part of the National Rail,
network, or not?

The observation that triggered the question was seeing, on one of the
maps on board a tube train, a station showing an interchange opportunity
with London Overground, but *not* showing the National Rail symbol
against the station name. Which would seem to imply not.

-roy

It is part of National Rail, but TfL has the franchise for whatever
number of years.

That's not quite right. TfL has taken over the responsibility for
awarding the concession from DfT. The current operating company is
LOROL, with a contract for seven years (plus a possible two year
extension) which started November 2007. LO is not a franchise (in the
same way as most of the other Train Operating Companies), as TfL takes
the full revenue risk and LOROL has to run the services to TfL's
specifications for a contracted price; with all the revenue going
back to TfL. When LOROL's contract is over, it will be upto TfL to
award the next concession. As far as ticketing, timetabling etc. is
concerned, LO are still part of the National Rail systems.

In some ways this is similar to the situation with Merseyrail, where
DfT has devolved the awarding of the concession/franchise to
Merseyside.

On Feb 20, 12:01*pm, Roy Badami wrote:

Subject says it all. *Is London Overground part of the National Rail,
network, or not?

The observation that triggered the question was seeing, on one of the
maps on board a tube train, a station showing an interchange opportunity
with London Overground, but *not* showing the National Rail symbol
against the station name. *Which would seem to imply not.

Yes. And no. And it depends on what you mean by "National Rail
network" anyway.

The current LO network - NLL, WLL and DC line - is all part of the
National Rail network - for example NR ticketing applies.

When the ELL reopens, then the section from Dalston down to New Cross
and NXG will not be part of the National Rail network (it's also not
owned by Network Rail), and the NR double-arrow symbol won't appear on
station totem signs along this stretch. How through NR ticketing will
work on this line is yet to be made clear.

TfL seem to regard LO as a kind of metro network - as the LO name
suggests, sort of an overground equivalent to the Underground. And
ultimately TfL are free to show interchanges on in-carriage Tube
diagrams however they please.

The travelling punter isn't going to care one way or another - what
they will know is that it's clear that TfL are responsible for LO. The
memorandum of understanding between DfT and TfL with regards to the
London Rail Concession agreements makes pretty clear that both parties
regard this as an open ended arrangement, i.e. TfL would be
responsible for these services for the foreseeable future.

On Feb 20, 12:41*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:16:18 +0000, "
wrote:

On 20.02.10 12:01, Roy Badami wrote:
Subject says it all. *Is London Overground part of the National Rail,
network, or not?

The observation that triggered the question was seeing, on one of the
maps on board a tube train, a station showing an interchange opportunity
with London Overground, but *not* showing the National Rail symbol
against the station name. Which would seem to imply not.

It is part of National Rail, but TfL has the franchise for whatever
number of years.

Not quite correct. *TfL have been given the powers to let and manage the
concession for the Overground network. LOROL are the concessionaire who
operate the service for TfL and have to meet the requirements and
standards set by TfL. TfL also take almost all of the risk on revenue
(i.e. they set and control fares rather than it being a TOC decision)
although LOROL are incentivised to keep fraud levels under control.

The set up is not dissimilar to what applies with the Merseyrail network
where the local PTE has delegated powers to specify and contract the
operation of the local Merseyrail Electrics network.

Though I understand that the operator of the Merseyrail Electrics,
Serco-Nedrailways (or is it now Serco-Abellio?), takes the revenue
risk - though I think the PTE may have taken it under the previous
arrangement when the concession (or possibly still a franchise back
then) was in the hands of MTL then Arriva (via a takeover).

LO is not a franchise (in the
same way as most of the other Train Operating Companies), as TfL takes
the full revenue risk and LOROL has to run the services to TfL's
specifications for a contracted price; with all the revenue going
back to TfL. When LOROL's contract is over, it will be upto TfL to
award the next concession. As far as ticketing, timetabling etc. is
concerned, LO are still part of the National Rail systems.

But not, it appears, as far as branding goes - unless the example I
cited was a mistake.

Out of curiosity, is LOROL a member or ATOC?

-roy

Mizter T wrote:

The current LO network - NLL, WLL and DC line - is all part of the
National Rail network - for example NR ticketing applies.

When the ELL reopens, then the section from Dalston down to New Cross
and NXG will not be part of the National Rail network (it's also not
owned by Network Rail), and the NR double-arrow symbol won't appear on
station totem signs along this stretch.

Ah, so do I take it from that that the NR symbol *has* been retained at
LO stations on the lines you mention?

-roy

On Feb 20, 12:58*pm, Roy Badami wrote:

* [...] LO is not a franchise (in the same way as most of the other
Train Operating Companies), as TfL takes the full revenue risk
and LOROL has to run the services to TfL's specifications for a
contracted price; *with all the revenue going back to TfL. When
LOROL's contract is over, it will be up to TfL to award the next
concession. As far as ticketing, timetabling etc. is concerned,
LO are still part of the National Rail systems.

But not, it appears, as far as branding goes - unless the example I
cited was a mistake.

Out of curiosity, is LOROL a member or ATOC?

Yes - see:
http://www.atoc.org/about.asp

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010, Roy Badami wrote:

Subject says it all. Is London Overground part of the National Rail,
network, or not?

You've had a salvo of answers on this specific question, to which i won't
add.

The observation that triggered the question was seeing, on one of the
maps on board a tube train, a station showing an interchange opportunity
with London Overground, but *not* showing the National Rail symbol
against the station name. Which would seem to imply not.

Which map, and which station?

TfL do have policies about what symbols get shown. For signs outside
stations (ones they run, at least), it says [1]:

Where a station is owned by London Underground, but has separate
platforms for London Overground trains

The totem outside the station will lead with an Underground roundel
followed by an Overground roundel and National Rail logo (where the
Overground network is not part of the National Rail network, no National
Rail logo is to be used).

But the rules for line diagram design [2] say:

(always display National Rail logo at Overground stations)

Now, AIUI at the moment there are no bits of the LO network which is not
part of the NR network, so both these rules mean the same thing in
practice, and both disagree with the map you actually saw.

However, if it was a network map rather than a line map, then it wouldn't
really be covered by either, and i can't find the rules for network maps.

tom

[1] http://www.tfl.gov.uk/microsites/int...rd-issue04.pdf
[2] http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...rd-issue03.pdf

--
My mother always said that democracy is the best revenge - Bilawal
Bhutto Zardari

On Feb 20, 1:02*pm, Roy Badami wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
The current LO network - NLL, WLL and DC line - is all part of the
National Rail network - for example NR ticketing applies.

When the ELL reopens, then the section from Dalston down to New Cross
and NXG will not be part of the National Rail network (it's also not
owned by Network Rail), and the NR double-arrow symbol won't appear on
station totem signs along this stretch.

Ah, so do I take it from that that the NR symbol *has* been retained at
LO stations on the lines you mention?

No - I said it "won't appear". At least that's what the TfL design
guidelines state. None of the stations are open yet, so I couldn't say
for sure, but there was no-sign of it at Surrey Quays or Rotherhithe
stations when I passed by recently, whilst orange LO roundels were
visible.

Of course the NR symbol will appear at New Cross and NX Gate, given
the other NR services there. (And New Cross itself is to remain a
Southeastern managed station, though NXG has already transferred to LO
management.)