In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message
,
at 01:59:38 on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, NM remarked:
The problem is that the AP ticket for that journey is valid either
for VT only (yes, I don't know how you are supposed to do the tails)
or "EastCoast and Connections". So you'd be travelling from Kings
Cross in any case.

FFS, you need to go to college now to buy a train ticket, WTF is it so
complex?

Because people apparently want to pay less than the Anytime fare,
if they can.

And to protect the revenue from walk-up tickets, that means putting
some kind of restriction on the cheaper tickets.

Restricting them to one ToC, and one named service, is a prime
candidate. The problem then, is that some journeys require the use
of more than one ToC - so they invent a ticket "with connections"
(onto a different ToC) at one or other end.

To try to keep things simpler (probably the reason) they don't
offer every possible combination of such tickets, so sometimes
you'll find that a longer trip such as London to Glasgow can only
be done on the major routings like ECML and WCML, rather than also
up the Midland mainline and via Sheffield/Leeds etc. (or even more
obscure routes).

The problem is lack of consistency. "and connections" covers far more
options with Virgin than with Cross Country for a start.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at
10:49:16 on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, remarked:
VT sell through Advance tickets with reservations only on their
services, e.g. Cambridge to Selly Oak.

Huh? Since when did VT have a through service on that route...

There's a VWC *and connections* ticket though.

The ticket they sell is an Advance from Cambridge to Selly Oak. You
can't buy a Cross-Country Advance from Cambridge to Selly Oak.

XC don't call at Selly Oak, do they?

Neither do Virgin Trains!

Do keep up, Roland. XC have been making much of how many of their
passengers in particular travel on other TOCs trains as well as theirs -
and that they run no stations, not even the ones (like between
Peterborough and Leicester exclusive) called at by no other TOC. So
offering significantly fewer off-network Advance fares than other TOCs is
self-defeating, especially where other TOCs are an option, as with
Cambridge-Selly Oak.

The Cross Country
MD recognised when i saw him recently that wasn't too clever. ;-)

You have to split the ticketing at New St.

Not with Virgin who charge the same fare to Selly Oak as to New St. I
should perhaps have mentioned that detail earlier.

Virgin's Cambridge - New St Advance fares can be cheaper too, even if you
split your XC fares at Leicester which generally reduces the XC fare from
£16 to £14 each way. You can get £10 or £11 from Virgin if you pick the
right time.

Like I said, XC realise this is a bit sub-optimal now.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message
, at
15:18:53 on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, martin remarked:
The problem is that the AP ticket for that journey is valid either for
VT only (yes, I don't know how you are supposed to do the tails) or
"EastCoast and Connections". So you'd be travelling from Kings Cross in
any case.

Perhaps I should have mentioned - my ticket is marked Route '+AP
Rugby', and Validity 'Bookdtrainonly'; the booked train in question
being a VT service from Euston to Glasgow Central.

Yes, the "AP Rugby" is exactly what Avantix says. But it also says "VT
trains only", so how are you supposed to get to Euston (and from Glasgow
Central)?

Do you have a booking on the local trains at each end?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 17:45:21
on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, remarked:
The problem is lack of consistency. "and connections" covers far more
options with Virgin than with Cross Country for a start.

I wonder if your opinions are being coloured by experiences on the XC
route to Stansted? This used to be run by Central Trains, who only had a
very limited number of point-to-point AP fares. Maybe A-XC, having
inhertited these, have not embellished them (much or at all).

Virgin-XC, on the other hand, seemed to be able to concoct enormously
complex trips (I've had one with four legs) using "connections", even
if some of the connecting legs were longer than the VXC leg!
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 18:44:26
on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, remarked:

VT sell through Advance tickets with reservations only on their
services, e.g. Cambridge to Selly Oak.

Huh? Since when did VT have a through service on that route...

There's a VWC *and connections* ticket though.

The ticket they sell is an Advance from Cambridge to Selly Oak. You
can't buy a Cross-Country Advance from Cambridge to Selly Oak.

XC don't call at Selly Oak, do they?

Neither do Virgin Trains!

Do keep up, Roland.

But VT are selling a ticket *and connections*. The XC tickets on the
Stnsted-Birminham route seem to be inherited from a small number of
point-to-point fares available when it was operated by Central.

XC have been making much of how many of their
passengers in particular travel on other TOCs trains as well as theirs -
and that they run no stations, not even the ones (like between
Peterborough and Leicester exclusive) called at by no other TOC.

EMT has a presence on that line. There's always been one through train a
day (via Syston North Curve) and more recently there's a sole Melton
Mowbray to London train (via Corby).

So offering significantly fewer off-network Advance fares than other
TOCs is self-defeating, especially where other TOCs are an option, as
with Cambridge-Selly Oak.

I think this is an artefact of inheriting the route from Central.

The Cross Country
MD recognised when i saw him recently that wasn't too clever. ;-)

You have to split the ticketing at New St.

Not with Virgin who charge the same fare to Selly Oak as to New St. I
should perhaps have mentioned that detail earlier.

I understood that, anyway. VT are selling the "and connection" part, XC
aren't.

Virgin's Cambridge - New St Advance fares can be cheaper too, even if you
split your XC fares at Leicester which generally reduces the XC fare from
£16 to £14 each way. You can get £10 or £11 from Virgin if you pick the
right time.

There are direct fares at £6.50 and £8.50 in the fares manual. Maybe
they have a very restricted availability? The cheapest I can find with
some mystery shopping [1] is £10 (XC).

I almost bought an XC AP ticket from Stansted to Leicester recently (but
chickened out in case the plane was late). That was quoted at a very
reasonable £5.50 !!

Like I said, XC realise this is a bit sub-optimal now.

Yes, they should make some effort to import the same policy they
inherited from the V-XC lines to the CT lines. Although some would say
even that is confusing, because it implies that fare structures change
when the franchise changes, and yet many people are resistant to the
fares they are familiar with changing.

[1] eg 10am departure 29th April.
--
Roland Perry

On Mar 2, 8:11*am, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 17:45:21
on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, remarked:

The problem is lack of consistency. "and connections" covers far more
options with Virgin than with Cross Country for a start.

I wonder if your opinions are being coloured by experiences on the XC
route to Stansted? This used to be run by Central Trains, who only had a
very limited number of point-to-point AP fares. Maybe A-XC, having
inhertited these, have not embellished them (much or at all).

Virgin-XC, on the other hand, seemed to be able to concoct enormously
complex *trips (I've had one with four legs) using "connections", even
if some of the connecting legs were longer than the VXC leg!

Curious as to what that was, if you can remember?

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at
17:45:21 on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, remarked:
The problem is lack of consistency. "and connections" covers far more
options with Virgin than with Cross Country for a start.

I wonder if your opinions are being coloured by experiences on the
XC route to Stansted? This used to be run by Central Trains, who
only had a very limited number of point-to-point AP fares. Maybe
A-XC, having inhertited these, have not embellished them (much or
at all).

Very much not coloured as far as I'm concerned. It might explain why XC
are being inconsistent, perhaps, but Central had through fares to Selly
Oak as they ran the Cross-City line in Brum too. XC must have made a
conscious decision to drop that validity.

Virgin-XC, on the other hand, seemed to be able to concoct
enormously complex trips (I've had one with four legs) using
"connections", even if some of the connecting legs were longer than
the VXC leg!

Oh, absolutely! A highly commendable can-do attitude. If you look at the
difference between a Cambridge-VWC destination advance fare and the
equivalent from Euston, Virgin are throwing in Cambridge-London for far
less than you can get it any other way.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at
18:44:26 on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, remarked:

VT sell through Advance tickets with reservations only on their
services, e.g. Cambridge to Selly Oak.

Huh? Since when did VT have a through service on that route...

There's a VWC *and connections* ticket though.

The ticket they sell is an Advance from Cambridge to Selly Oak. You
can't buy a Cross-Country Advance from Cambridge to Selly Oak.

XC don't call at Selly Oak, do they?

Neither do Virgin Trains!

Do keep up, Roland.

But VT are selling a ticket *and connections*. The XC tickets on
the Stnsted-Birminham route seem to be inherited from a small
number of point-to-point fares available when it was operated by
Central.

*Including Cambridge to Selly Oak!*

XC have been making much of how many of their
passengers in particular travel on other TOCs trains as well as
theirs - and that they run no stations, not even the ones (like between
Peterborough and Leicester exclusive) called at by no other TOC.

EMT has a presence on that line. There's always been one through
train a day (via Syston North Curve) and more recently there's a
sole Melton Mowbray to London train (via Corby).

Oh, right! Like NXEA have trains at Manea or Shippea Hill, I suppose.

So offering significantly fewer off-network Advance fares than other
TOCs is self-defeating, especially where other TOCs are an option, as
with Cambridge-Selly Oak.

I think this is an artefact of inheriting the route from Central.

Shouldn't be. Central ran the service t Selly Oak too.

The Cross Country
MD recognised when i saw him recently that wasn't too clever. ;-)

You have to split the ticketing at New St.

Not with Virgin who charge the same fare to Selly Oak as to New St. I
should perhaps have mentioned that detail earlier.

I understood that, anyway. VT are selling the "and connection"
part, XC aren't.

But they do sell "and connection" tickets. It's what most of their
passengers need, according to them.

Virgin's Cambridge - New St Advance fares can be cheaper too, even if
you split your XC fares at Leicester which generally reduces the XC
fare from £16 to £14 each way. You can get £10 or £11 from Virgin if
you pick the right time.

There are direct fares at £6.50 and £8.50 in the fares manual.
Maybe they have a very restricted availability? The cheapest I can
find with some mystery shopping [1] is £10 (XC).

Must be, just as there are lower fares to Leicester I've never seen at
times my daughter travels. £2.30 LEI-CBG (with railcard). Best she gets is
£3.30, presumably £5 without railcard. I was looking at weekend trips in
mid-April, out Friday back Sunday afternoons/evenings when the XC pricing
is pretty uniform while Virgin is a bit more varied.

I almost bought an XC AP ticket from Stansted to Leicester recently
(but chickened out in case the plane was late). That was quoted at
a very reasonable £5.50 !!

What day of the week and time? That might correspond to the elusive £2.30
fare.

Like I said, XC realise this is a bit sub-optimal now.

Yes, they should make some effort to import the same policy they
inherited from the V-XC lines to the CT lines. Although some would
say even that is confusing, because it implies that fare structures
change when the franchise changes, and yet many people are
resistant to the fares they are familiar with changing.

[1] eg 10am departure 29th April.

Going back to the CT policy would be a start!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message
, at
02:22:50 on Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Mizter T remarked:
Virgin-XC, on the other hand, seemed to be able to concoct enormously
complex *trips (I've had one with four legs) using "connections", even
if some of the connecting legs were longer than the VXC leg!

Curious as to what that was, if you can remember?

Outward Journey: Sunday 15/07/2007 £16.65 VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE C
================

departs NOTTINGHAM at 10:18 MIDLAND MAIN LINE to LEICESTER arrives 10:50
departs LEICESTER at 11:15 CENTRAL TRAINS to BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET
arrives 12:20
departs BIRMINGHAM at 12:33 VIRGIN TRAINS to READING arrives 14:14
departs READING at 14:32 FST GREAT WESTERN to PLYMOUTH arrives 17:33

Coming back I had to split the ticketing at Gloucester (no cheap through
tickets available)

Outward Journey: Monday 16/07/2007 £13.00 VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE C
================

departs PLYMOUTH at 11:25 VIRGIN TRAINS to BRISTOL TEMPLE MEADS
arrives 13:25
departs BRISTOL TM at 13:44 FST GREAT WESTERN to GLOUCESTR arrives 14:32

Outward Journey: Monday 16/07/2007 £15.00 CENTRAL VALUE 1 SINGLE
================

departs GLOUCESTER at 14:46 by CENTRAL TRAINS to NOTTINHAM arrives 17:04

Luckily, all the connections were made OK. But it does demonstrate that
the ex-Virgin bits are better value than ex-CT.

Booked a month in advance, but I had to force "via Reading" to get the
southbound ticket. I experimented with splitting the northbound trip,
and eventually ended up with the ticket on the Cardiff-Nottingham CT
train (which is now XC like the Stansteds).

My business in Plymouth was conducted successfully on Monday morning
--
Roland Perry

On Mar 2, 7:32*am, Roland Perry wrote:
Yes, the "AP Rugby" is exactly what Avantix says. But it also says "VT
trains only", so how are you supposed to get to Euston (and from Glasgow
Central)?
I agree that NFM 05 CD states "Valid on Virgin Trains (TOC Code: IWC)
services only." in the text of Restriction VR, for example. But this
restriction does not apply because it is not shown on the ticket.
Instead, the words printed under "Route" on the ticket are "+ AP
RUGBY".

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage states:
"10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies.
Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket."