In message , Paul Terry
writes

Just saying that you can use Oyster on the NE

Sorry, bit missing:

Just saying that you can use Oyster PAYG on the National Express system
without any sort of qualification is a bit daft, if that is all they
say.
--
Paul Terry

Paul Terry wrote:

Yes but it depends how much research is needed. I cannot recall seeing
anything on National Express about OEPs and the posters about Oystyer at
my
local station are just the "you can use it on us now" type - precisely the
opposite of "there are different rules" to learn.

By the same reasoning, you could argue that people will touch in at
Liverpool Street and expect to touch out at Norwich. Just saying that you
can use Oyster on the NE

They don't *just* say that, they say it's about using it within London/the
travelcard zones. I think people can grasp that easily but expecting them to
be aware that to travel beyond their season ticket zones on National Rail is
different from travelling on the tube and that to do so they need to obtain
something unobtainable at the station itself is not only so detached from
common sense but also is contrary to the way the whole thing is being
advertised, especially at suburban stations.

Remember also that PAYG was always available on Liverpool Street to
Stratford (amongst other routes) and you didn't need OEPs then

Nor do you now if all you are using is PAYG.

If, on the other hand, you were using a travelcard, you needed an
extension ticket to travel beyond your zones.

Yes and there's next to no publicity about this chage for season ticket
holders along the rest of the line.

Is the average layperson expected to trawl the web every week to see if
the rules have changed?

Now you're being silly. PAYG was extended to National Rail at the start of
January. Nothing has changed since then.

The way that has been advertised has not highlighted what has been changed.

On 12 Mar, 01:23, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:
Paul Terry wrote:
Yes but it depends how much research is needed. I cannot recall seeing
anything on National Express about OEPs and the posters about Oystyer at
my
local station are just the "you can use it on us now" type - precisely the
opposite of "there are different rules" to learn.
By the same reasoning, you could argue that people will touch in at
Liverpool Street and expect to touch out at Norwich. Just saying that you
can use Oyster on the NE

They don't *just* say that, they say it's about using it within London/the
travelcard zones. I think people can grasp that easily but expecting them to
be aware that to travel beyond their season ticket zones on National Rail is
different from travelling on the tube and that to do so they need to obtain
something unobtainable at the station itself is not only so detached from
common sense but also is contrary to the way the whole thing is being
advertised, especially at suburban stations.

Remember also that PAYG was always available on Liverpool Street to
Stratford (amongst other routes) and you didn't need OEPs then
Nor do you now if all you are using is PAYG.
If, on the other hand, you were using a travelcard, you needed an
extension ticket to travel beyond your zones.

Yes and there's next to no publicity about this chage for season ticket
holders along the rest of the line.

Is the average layperson expected to trawl the web every week to see if
the rules have changed?
Now you're being silly. PAYG was extended to National Rail at the start of
January. Nothing has changed since then.

The way that has been advertised has not highlighted what has been changed.

I wasn't paying attention, so I don't know how new they are, but SET
now has posters inside trains saying "Use your Oyster card on our
Greater London metro services".

It urges people to touch in and touch out to calculate the correct
fare, or risk being liable to a penalty fare (not fully explained, but
in general it covers all bases and won't cause any harm).

It doesn't make any mention whatsovever of

PAYG
travelcards
OEPs

Interesting.

In message
, MIG
writes

I wasn't paying attention, so I don't know how new they are, but SET
now has posters inside trains saying "Use your Oyster card on our
Greater London metro services".

It urges people to touch in and touch out to calculate the correct
fare, or risk being liable to a penalty fare (not fully explained, but
in general it covers all bases and won't cause any harm).

It doesn't make any mention whatsovever of

PAYG
travelcards
OEPs

Interesting.

And of particular interest to TfL who will, I'm sure push for OEPs to be
abandoned in June on the basis that the TOCs who wanted them are neither
advertising nor selling them, and 97% of their customers are not using
them
--
Paul Terry

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 02:30:00PM +0000, Paul Terry wrote:
In message , David
Cantrell writes
On the contrary, given the publicity about the extension of PAYG, a
layperson could reasonably expect it to Just Work. If he's familiar
with how PAYG works on the Tube, then he wouldn't expect to have to
learn all kinds of extra crazy rules for the trains.
I'm not defending OEPs - they are a ridiculous idea - but I do object to
the suggestion that the average person is incapable of learning
something new.

They're clearly capable of learning, but it's not made obvious that
there is anything to learn in the first place. It certainly *appears*
to work the same way as the tube - slap your wallet on the yellow thing
and usually the barriers open (but at other times you need to do it
several times) just like at tube stations.

--
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire

Suffer the little children to come unto me, as
their buying habits are most easily influenced.
-- Marketroid Jesus

In message , David
Cantrell writes

They're clearly capable of learning, but it's not made obvious that
there is anything to learn in the first place. It certainly *appears*
to work the same way as the tube - slap your wallet on the yellow thing
and usually the barriers open (but at other times you need to do it
several times) just like at tube stations.

Except that the majority of NR stations don't have barriers.

It may be more useful to think in terms of what happens with paper
tickets. Your Zones 1-2 travelcard will appear to work fine for a
journey from Waterloo to Mortlake - it will let you in at Waterloo and
there are no barriers at Mortlake to prevent you leaving the system. But
if you haven't learned that you need to buy an extension ticket to
travel beyond Zone 2 you risk a Penalty Fare if gripped beyond Zone 2.
--
Paul Terry

In message , at 12:35:31
on Tue, 16 Mar 2010, David Cantrell remarked:
On the contrary, given the publicity about the extension of PAYG, a
layperson could reasonably expect it to Just Work. If he's familiar
with how PAYG works on the Tube, then he wouldn't expect to have to
learn all kinds of extra crazy rules for the trains.
I'm not defending OEPs - they are a ridiculous idea - but I do object to
the suggestion that the average person is incapable of learning
something new.

They're clearly capable of learning, but it's not made obvious that
there is anything to learn in the first place.

They have to learn to pick up an OEP before starting the journey.

--
Roland Perry

On 16 Mar, 14:42, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:35:31
on Tue, 16 Mar 2010, David Cantrell remarked:

On the contrary, given the publicity about the extension of PAYG, a
layperson could reasonably expect it to Just Work. *If he's familiar
with how PAYG works on the Tube, then he wouldn't expect to have to
learn all kinds of extra crazy rules for the trains.
I'm not defending OEPs - they are a ridiculous idea - but I do object to
the suggestion that the average person is incapable of learning
something new.

They're clearly capable of learning, but it's not made obvious that
there is anything to learn in the first place.

They have to learn to pick up an OEP before starting the journey.

Which can't be picked up at the place where the journey starts, from
the office of the company that insists on their use.

On Mar 16, 2:57*pm, MIG wrote:

On 16 Mar, 14:42, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 12:35:31
on Tue, 16 Mar 2010, David Cantrell remarked:

On the contrary, given the publicity about the extension of PAYG, a
layperson could reasonably expect it to Just Work. *If he's familiar
with how PAYG works on the Tube, then he wouldn't expect to have to
learn all kinds of extra crazy rules for the trains.
I'm not defending OEPs - they are a ridiculous idea - but I do object to
the suggestion that the average person is incapable of learning
something new.

They're clearly capable of learning, but it's not made obvious that
there is anything to learn in the first place.

They have to learn to pick up an OEP before starting the journey.

Which can't be picked up at the place where the journey starts, from
the office of the company that insists on their use.

So they don't bother about it (if indeed they knew and understood the
supposed requirement in the first place), the RPIs don't bother about
it either, and the whole charade gets quietly forgotten about in June
when it's effectiveness or otherwise gets reviewed.,,

Paul Terry wrote:

They're clearly capable of learning, but it's not made obvious that
there is anything to learn in the first place. It certainly *appears*
to work the same way as the tube - slap your wallet on the yellow thing
and usually the barriers open (but at other times you need to do it
several times) just like at tube stations.

Except that the majority of NR stations don't have barriers.

Nor do the bulk of DLR stations but you touch out on a stand alone machine.

It may be more useful to think in terms of what happens with paper
tickets. Your Zones 1-2 travelcard will appear to work fine for a journey
from Waterloo to Mortlake - it will let you in at Waterloo and there are
no barriers at Mortlake to prevent you leaving the system. But if you
haven't learned that you need to buy an extension ticket to travel beyond
Zone 2 you risk a Penalty Fare if gripped beyond Zone 2.

Yes but with travelcard seasons on Oyster one has never needed an extension
ticket. Someone with a zones 2-4 could enter at Stratford and leave at
Liverpool Street with a straightforward extension deducted. Nothing has said
that has changed. The publicity says that PAYG has been extended to all
national rail services in the zone, so why should they assume a Stratford to
Romford journey will be any different? Or for that matter why should the
Liverpool Street bound passenger be expected to know anything at all has
changed?