David B...My only experience of the French systems are in Paris on the RATP
and slightly OT in Brussels and Charleroi a Belge.
The RATP does accept Cash-to- Driver transactions,BUT it will almost
certainly be accompanied by a Folies Bergere performance of
eye-rolling,shoulder shrugging and much heaving of the breast (and that`s
les Hommes !) before the Driver opens his little drawer and manually
produces a ticket (?1.30) which you then validate yourself.
Whilst the driver is recovering from the heebie-jeebies you then realise
that the remaining passengers were also regarding you with insouciance and
occasional rasping taunts from the older females who are ALWAYS in a huge
rush to get on and off the vehicle and in posession of razor-edged cases to
help clear a path for themselves.
I was caught out only once and now my first visit when in Paris is to a
Vending Machine to purchase a carnet (10 single tickets for 10 euro,saving 3
euro on the deal and also a lot of face)
Again however the very principle of OPO does tend to discourage any form of
questioning of the Driver,something which the WELL Conducted Routemaster can
cope with and even encourage.
Another difference in ethos concerns the Revenue Protection operation.
On 4 seperate visits to France last year I witnessed Revenue or RATP Agents
Seurete in operation on Bus and Metro and also in Nice where I saw two fare
dodgers caught red-handed and relieved of 66 euro as an alternative to
having the Police involved,an alternative which was grasped with alacrity by
the two miscreants...(The fare ??...........1 euro 60 cent...!!!!)
Contrast that to my experience of 6 seperate visits to London when the only
time my Travelcard was inspected was by Conductors on Routemaster
services.......
In addition I do feel that the entire business of Buggy access has the
capability to rebound on Bus companies as it is becoming increasingly
difficult to enforce any safe limit to the numbers of such
contrivances...(and before anybody cries foul I lay claim to the effective
stewardship of two childer..one 22 and the other 9....).
Eventually the limit will be drawn in sand following some major incident
when the Courts will be forced to impose regulations on companies who simply
regard low-floor space as a marketable wheeze to bring out "Young-Mums" and
convince them all that they will have guaranteed access to every Bus which
happens along.
I took one memorable journey in Notingham on an Optare Solo (?) which at one
stage had FOUR occupied buggies PLUS attached dangling shopping..at one
point a FIFTH buggy pushing gent actually attempted to lift his buggy over
the ones which were already blocking the gangway before being prevented from
so doing by other PASSENGERS rather than by the driver.
At the end of the journey the driver told me that he and his colleagues felt
unable to say Boo to the buggy pushers for fear of being reported and
hounded by young Graduate Management types for being uncivil to the deprived
or socially excluded in the community....
My central point is not to compare the Routemaster with ANY of the newer
modes of bus operation but to recognise how it does have a perfectly
acceptable level of performance especially in Refurbished form and as such
is capable of continued cost effective mainstream service.
But in the end Boltar is probably nearer the point as it seems a central
tenet of Administrators is to continually convince us that we need
protection from every risk such as jumping off a moving bus might
present...but then that sort of advice was once a reserved function of
Parents,Aunties,Uncles,and strict Schoolmasters all of whom tried to instil
a respect for things which might injure or kill us...Including Buses which
as most people know do not posess a conscience....!

Except mums with pushchairs. And people who can't climb the steps to
the lower saloon. Many of the complaints regarding double deck
low-floor buses related to the early vehicles which had little seating
in the low-floor area.

Oh the modern ones still have problems too. The seats at the rear of the
bus are often up high steps that make them as inaccessible as the upstairs
(and even for those that can use them extra care is needed when going to get
off the bus, I've lost footing a few times myself). The side facing seats
often found near the front are not deep enough and have inadequate hand
grips so when the bus turns corners people are catapulted across the floor
of the bus. When the wheelchair areas are not in use the hinged seats will
often quickly spring up without passengers realising so if they drop
something and go to pick it up they end up falling to the floor.

"Graham J" typed


Except mums with pushchairs. And people who can't climb the steps to
the lower saloon. Many of the complaints regarding double deck
low-floor buses related to the early vehicles which had little seating
in the low-floor area.

Oh the modern ones still have problems too. The seats at the rear of the
bus are often up high steps that make them as inaccessible as the upstairs
(and even for those that can use them extra care is needed when going to get
off the bus, I've lost footing a few times myself).

Actually, they are *less* accessible than the top deck of a double
decker for someone like me.
Double deckers have narrow staircases with handrails on both sides, so I
can pull myself upstairs with my arms. Trouble is, many fit people
can't be bothered to go upstairs, forcing people like me upstairs where
I can be guaranteed a seat.

Steps on single deckers can be high, with few available handholds. I try
to avoid to try to use the seats at the back of either single or modern
double-decker buses as I can't approach or leave these safely. Other
passengers can also end up with me stepping on their toes.

The side facing seats
often found near the front are not deep enough and have inadequate hand
grips so when the bus turns corners people are catapulted across the floor
of the bus.
As has happened to me...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:23:06 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

[1] Deckers are rare in Germany, probably Mercedes' largest target
markets for buses, mainly because road/rail bridges tend to be much
lower. The only place I've seen them in any quantity is Berlin -
where absolutely huge long-wheelbase double-doored deckers with two
staircases operate many routes.

They have (re-?) introduced double deckers to Copenhagen in Denmark,
where I saw some this time last year. I've seen pictures of some in
Baghdad, and though not in public service I've spotted "London buses"
lurking in Geneva and somewhere in the middle of Finland.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:49:15 -0000, "Billy"
wrote:

The RATP does accept Cash-to- Driver transactions,BUT it will almost
certainly be accompanied by a Folies Bergere performance of
eye-rolling,shoulder shrugging and much heaving of the breast (and that`s
les Hommes !) before the Driver opens his little drawer and manually
produces a ticket (?1.30) which you then validate yourself.
Whilst the driver is recovering from the heebie-jeebies you then realise
that the remaining passengers were also regarding you with insouciance and
occasional rasping taunts from the older females who are ALWAYS in a huge
rush to get on and off the vehicle and in posession of razor-edged cases to
help clear a path for themselves.

I've only used a Parisian bus once, but I had no problems with a cash
fare, and I don't even speak French.

I used a Connex bus in Kutna Hora (CZ) recently, and the driver was
perfectly helpful, in contast to a week or so later when a Connex
driver in Croydon was extremely rude to a would-be passenger who made
the mistake of asking if he went to a particular place.

Contrast that to my experience of 6 seperate visits to London when the only
time my Travelcard was inspected was by Conductors on Routemaster
services.......

You didn't use the Underground, or a gated National Rail station? (OK,
on NR you just go the side gate and wave any random bit of paper and
it will usually get you through)


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Followup-To:

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:32:17 +0000, Arthur Figgis postmaster@[ wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:49:15 -0000, "Billy"
wrote:

The RATP does accept Cash-to- Driver transactions,BUT it will almost
certainly be accompanied by a Folies Bergere performance of
eye-rolling,shoulder shrugging and much heaving of the breast (and that`s
les Hommes !) before the Driver opens his little drawer and manually
produces a ticket (?1.30) which you then validate yourself.
Whilst the driver is recovering from the heebie-jeebies you then realise
that the remaining passengers were also regarding you with insouciance and
occasional rasping taunts from the older females who are ALWAYS in a huge
rush to get on and off the vehicle and in posession of razor-edged cases to
help clear a path for themselves.

I've only used a Parisian bus once, but I had no problems with a cash
fare, and I don't even speak French.

I used a Connex bus in Kutna Hora (CZ) recently, and the driver was
perfectly helpful, in contast to a week or so later when a Connex

you didnt happen past the Alchemical Museum by any chance?


--
Martin Smith

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:04:48 +0000, Martin Smith
wrote:


I used a Connex bus in Kutna Hora (CZ) recently, and the driver was
perfectly helpful, in contast to a week or so later when a Connex

you didnt happen past the Alchemical Museum by any chance?

Nope. Just a mad Welsh couple arguing about whether a cathedral wall
painting of an animal with a hump stood the middle of a desert was of
a camel or a monkey, and a crypt full of bones.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

In article ,
(Billy) wrote:

Its a matter of opinion really as to whether a Considerately Conducted
Routemaster is any worse than a modern One Person Operated Low Floor
Double Decker for MOST people up to and including those classed as
"Moderately" disabled.

The unique advantage of Routemasters is that they are accessible between
stops because they don't have doors. In central London that outweighs a
number of its disadvantages.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Yes Colin this IS indeed a unique advantage but it is also one of the many
reasons for TfL`s insistance on retiring the breed.
The Routemaster remains a unique concept which rather than becoming less
relevant with the passage of time is actually bucking the trend.
My last spell of travel on a NEW low floor bus was in the presence of
pasengers who were extremely irrated by the Drivers (Quite Correct) refusal
to open the exit doors until he was adjacent to the kerb.
Although the fellow did actually allow passengers to alight between stops he
was not prepared to open the doors while the bus was out on the
carriageway......Sometimes progress is not quite what it seems....?
The build up of tension within the bus was most noticable and certainly not
a facet which could be marketed as a "desirable" feature of LFDD bus
travel......???

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:11:00 -0000, "Billy"
wrote:

Yes Colin this IS indeed a unique advantage but it is also one of the many
reasons for TfL`s insistance on retiring the breed.
The Routemaster remains a unique concept which rather than becoming less
relevant with the passage of time is actually bucking the trend.
My last spell of travel on a NEW low floor bus was in the presence of
pasengers who were extremely irrated by the Drivers (Quite Correct) refusal
to open the exit doors until he was adjacent to the kerb.
Although the fellow did actually allow passengers to alight between stops he
was not prepared to open the doors while the bus was out on the
carriageway......Sometimes progress is not quite what it seems....?
The build up of tension within the bus was most noticable and certainly not
a facet which could be marketed as a "desirable" feature of LFDD bus
travel......???

AFAIR, up to 10 passengers a year die from falling from the rear
platforms of Routemasters.


That's not a desirable feature of open platform operation....


Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk