Since I moved to London in the year 2001, I have lived in South London
(Norwood) and rather liked it. Ten years and a failed relationship
later I find myself in Cockfosters, at the far end of the Piccadilly
Line.

The shock at moving to North London (and not doing things by halves,
about as far "North London" as you can get, is that the M25 I can
hear?) and the cost of a Zone 1-5 Travelcard was tempered by a much
easier commute to work - Cockfosters to Green Park, on the Piccadilly
Line with the choice, yes choice! of changing at Finsbury Park to the
Victoria Line should I so desire.

But my god, three months on and I am cursing the Piccadilly line
almost daily.

It appears to me that a "Good Service" will invariably involve an
interminably slow journey between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove, an
extended pause at either Oakwood and/or Arnos Grove, or trains at
Arnos Grove that arrived after my one, departing first. Sometimes the
driver will tell you that the train that has just arrived will leave
first, but sometimes they don't. Minor Delays have seen me 15 minutes
or more late, and I dread to think what a severe delay is.

At Cockfosters, if you miss the announcement as to when the next train
is, you can stand around for about a minute or more waiting as the
electronic displays will only ever show the very next departure,
nothing more, or simply the text "Piccadilly Line". So you can arrive,
there's a train at each platform, with no information as to which one
is actually due to leave. And sometimes after a minute a train will
depart, with no announcement. It feels like London Underground's own
version of "Train Doors will be closed 30 seconds before departure",
but until 30 seconds before you should still know which platform to
aim for!

Then there's the actual announcements at Cockfosters, which really
grate on me.
"Piccadilly Line, the next train to Heathrow T123 and 5 will depart
from Platform 1". Hmmm. I am being a pedant, but I would have thought
that "Piccadilly Line, the next train from Platform 1 is to Heathrow
T123 and 5". God that is pedantic. But indulge me.

Some of the staff are lovely : notably at Cockfosters, Oakwood,
Southgate and Arnos Grove - but I have never really encountered a
"bad" member of staff. Although last week, someone asked a man in a
London Underground uniform if the train he was walking towards was the
next one to leave and he shrugged his shoulders. He walked up to the
drivers cab, got in, waited and indeed his train was the next to
leave. So I can either take from that that the drivers don't even know
when they are about to depart and only go by the signals, or he was
just unhelpful.

When the Piccadilly Line does work well, commuting is a joy, compared
to my old journey of BUS - TRAIN - BUS - WALK. I now have TUBE - WALK.
Which is great. But whenever I see "GOOD SERVICE", I honestly don't
know what to expect when I get to the station. That can't be right.

On 23/04/2010 20:14, Railist wrote:
Since I moved to London in the year 2001, I have lived in South London
(Norwood) and rather liked it. Ten years and a failed relationship
later I find myself in Cockfosters, at the far end of the Piccadilly
Line.

The shock at moving to North London (and not doing things by halves,
about as far "North London" as you can get, is that the M25 I can
hear?) and the cost of a Zone 1-5 Travelcard was tempered by a much
easier commute to work - Cockfosters to Green Park, on the Piccadilly
Line with the choice, yes choice! of changing at Finsbury Park to the
Victoria Line should I so desire.

But my god, three months on and I am cursing the Piccadilly line
almost daily.

It appears to me that a "Good Service" will invariably involve an
interminably slow journey between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove, an
extended pause at either Oakwood and/or Arnos Grove, or trains at
Arnos Grove that arrived after my one, departing first. Sometimes the
driver will tell you that the train that has just arrived will leave
first, but sometimes they don't. Minor Delays have seen me 15 minutes
or more late, and I dread to think what a severe delay is.

At Cockfosters, if you miss the announcement as to when the next train
is, you can stand around for about a minute or more waiting as the
electronic displays will only ever show the very next departure,
nothing more, or simply the text "Piccadilly Line". So you can arrive,
there's a train at each platform, with no information as to which one
is actually due to leave. And sometimes after a minute a train will
depart, with no announcement. It feels like London Underground's own
version of "Train Doors will be closed 30 seconds before departure",
but until 30 seconds before you should still know which platform to
aim for!

Then there's the actual announcements at Cockfosters, which really
grate on me.
"Piccadilly Line, the next train to Heathrow T123 and 5 will depart
from Platform 1". Hmmm. I am being a pedant, but I would have thought
that "Piccadilly Line, the next train from Platform 1 is to Heathrow
T123 and 5". God that is pedantic. But indulge me.

Some of the staff are lovely : notably at Cockfosters, Oakwood,
Southgate and Arnos Grove - but I have never really encountered a
"bad" member of staff. Although last week, someone asked a man in a
London Underground uniform if the train he was walking towards was the
next one to leave and he shrugged his shoulders. He walked up to the
drivers cab, got in, waited and indeed his train was the next to
leave. So I can either take from that that the drivers don't even know
when they are about to depart and only go by the signals, or he was
just unhelpful.

When the Piccadilly Line does work well, commuting is a joy, compared
to my old journey of BUS - TRAIN - BUS - WALK. I now have TUBE - WALK.
Which is great. But whenever I see "GOOD SERVICE", I honestly don't
know what to expect when I get to the station. That can't be right.

Anybody seen a picture or a drawing of the 2014 stock that's due to
replace the '73 stock?

On 23 Apr, 23:41, "
wrote:
On 23/04/2010 20:14, Railist wrote:





Since I moved to London in the year 2001, I have lived in South London
(Norwood) and rather liked it. Ten years and a failed relationship
later I find myself in Cockfosters, at the far end of the Piccadilly
Line.

The shock at moving to North London (and not doing things by halves,
about as far "North London" as you can get, is that the M25 I can
hear?) and the cost of a Zone 1-5 Travelcard was tempered by a much
easier commute to work - Cockfosters to Green Park, on the Piccadilly
Line with the choice, yes choice! of changing at Finsbury Park to the
Victoria Line should I so desire.

But my god, three months on and I am cursing the Piccadilly line
almost daily.

It appears to me that a "Good Service" will invariably involve an
interminably slow journey between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove, an
extended pause at either Oakwood and/or Arnos Grove, or trains at
Arnos Grove that arrived after my one, departing first. Sometimes the
driver will tell you that the train that has just arrived will leave
first, but sometimes they don't. Minor Delays have seen me 15 minutes
or more late, and I dread to think what a severe delay is.

At Cockfosters, if you miss the announcement as to when the next train
is, you can stand around for about a minute or more waiting as the
electronic displays will only ever show the very next departure,
nothing more, or simply the text "Piccadilly Line". So you can arrive,
there's a train at each platform, with no information as to which one
is actually due to leave. And sometimes after a minute a train will
depart, with no announcement. It feels like London Underground's own
version of "Train Doors will be closed 30 seconds before departure",
but until 30 seconds before you should still know which platform to
aim for!

Then there's the actual announcements at Cockfosters, which really
grate on me.
"Piccadilly Line, the next train to Heathrow T123 and 5 will depart
from Platform 1". Hmmm. I am being a pedant, but I would have thought
that "Piccadilly Line, the next train from Platform 1 is to Heathrow
T123 and 5". God that is pedantic. But indulge me.

Some of the staff are lovely : notably at Cockfosters, Oakwood,
Southgate and Arnos Grove - but I have never really encountered a
"bad" member of staff. Although last week, someone asked a man in a
London Underground uniform if the train he was walking towards was the
next one to leave and he shrugged his shoulders. He walked up to the
drivers cab, got in, waited and indeed his train was the next to
leave. So I can either take from that that the drivers don't even know
when they are about to depart and only go by the signals, or he was
just unhelpful.

When the Piccadilly Line does work well, commuting is a joy, compared
to my old journey of BUS - TRAIN - BUS - WALK. I now have TUBE - WALK.
Which is great. But whenever I see "GOOD SERVICE", I honestly don't
know what to expect when I get to the station. That can't be right.

Anybody seen a picture or a drawing of the 2014 stock that's due to
replace the '73 stock?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hmm; let me guess. Foot-thick walls, with spikes coming out of them,
six rock-hard seats per carriage?

In message , "
writes

When the Piccadilly Line does work well, commuting is a joy, compared
to my old journey of BUS - TRAIN - BUS - WALK. I now have TUBE - WALK.
Which is great. But whenever I see "GOOD SERVICE", I honestly don't
know what to expect when I get to the station. That can't be right.

Anybody seen a picture or a drawing of the 2014 stock that's due to
replace the '73 stock?

I'm not convinced that there ever will be 2014 stock. The latest I've
heard bandied around at work is 20 stock.

Assuming it does happen (either '14 or '20) the feeling is that it's
most likely to be an updated version of 96 stock.

Of course this could all be unfounded rubbish.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote on 24 April 2010 01:14:04 ...
In , "
writes

When the Piccadilly Line does work well, commuting is a joy, compared
to my old journey of BUS - TRAIN - BUS - WALK. I now have TUBE - WALK.
Which is great. But whenever I see "GOOD SERVICE", I honestly don't
know what to expect when I get to the station. That can't be right.

Anybody seen a picture or a drawing of the 2014 stock that's due to
replace the '73 stock?

I'm not convinced that there ever will be 2014 stock. The latest I've
heard bandied around at work is 20 stock.

Assuming it does happen (either '14 or '20) the feeling is that it's
most likely to be an updated version of 96 stock.

Don't you mean an updated version of 95 stock (which I thought was an
updated version of 96 stock despite the name)?
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:38:57 +0100, "Richard J."
wrote:

Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote on 24 April 2010 01:14:04
...

Assuming it does happen (either '14 or '20) the feeling is that it's
most likely to be an updated version of 96 stock.

Don't you mean an updated version of 95 stock (which I thought was an
updated version of 96 stock despite the name)?

Not necessarily as I believe the traction packages differ. I have no
idea what is proposed by Alstom in respect of the Picc Line.

I know Bombardier has apparently excluded itself, but are there are any
other prospective bidders for this contract?

Paul Corfield wrote on 24 April 2010 11:48:34 ...
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:38:57 +0100, "Richard J."
wrote:

Steve ] wrote on 24 April 2010 01:14:04 ...

Assuming it does happen (either '14 or '20) the feeling is that it's
most likely to be an updated version of 96 stock.

Don't you mean an updated version of 95 stock (which I thought was an
updated version of 96 stock despite the name)?

Not necessarily as I believe the traction packages differ.

Yes, that's one element of the updating that was done to the 96 to
produce the 95. 96 stock has the whiney 1991-designed GTO thyristor
control, whereas 95 stock has more modern IGBT control.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

In message , Richard J.
writes

I'm not convinced that there ever will be 2014 stock. The latest I've
heard bandied around at work is 20 stock.

Assuming it does happen (either '14 or '20) the feeling is that it's
most likely to be an updated version of 96 stock.

Don't you mean an updated version of 95 stock (which I thought was an
updated version of 96 stock despite the name)?

You would have thought so but Jubilee stock has been specifically
mentioned to me as the last few were built only a couple of years ago.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

In message
,
Railist writes

Gwan then, I'll bite....

But my god, three months on and I am cursing the Piccadilly line
almost daily.

Why? It's a great line

It appears to me that a "Good Service" will invariably involve an
interminably slow journey between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove, an
extended pause at either Oakwood and/or Arnos Grove, or trains at
Arnos Grove that arrived after my one, departing first. Sometimes the
driver will tell you that the train that has just arrived will leave
first, but sometimes they don't. Minor Delays have seen me 15 minutes
or more late, and I dread to think what a severe delay is.

You really don't want to be there when there are severe delays

First of all, the booked time from Cockfosters to Green Park is 38
minutes; say 40 minutes for round figures. I would suggest that your
journey is rarely longer than 45 minutes and more often than not, closer
to the 38/40 minutes booked. I have not recently had any days when I've
been more than a couple of minutes late at any point.

The journey from Cockfosters to Arnos is a bit of a chore sometimes.
During the morning peak (and leading up to it) you will have trains
coming in to service from Cockfosters (east end), Cockfosters (west end)
and reversers at Arnos Grove, all to get the 28 trains per hour through
the centre section. The trains you see depart are Arnos Grove reversers
and are actually booked to leave before you arrive but as we have a
timetable that has a fair bit of recovery in it, CFS trains often arrive
before the reverser departs - not helped by the signalling which doesn't
allow potentially conflicting moves.

There is no hard and fast rule on advising customers of the earlier
departure but as the train you are on will almost always follow 2
minutes later and shunting people from one train to another will take at
least 1 minute, is it really worth all the effort? I would suggest not.

At Cockfosters, if you miss the announcement as to when the next train
is, you can stand around for about a minute or more waiting as the
electronic displays will only ever show the very next departure,
nothing more, or simply the text "Piccadilly Line". So you can arrive,
there's a train at each platform, with no information as to which one
is actually due to leave. And sometimes after a minute a train will
depart, with no announcement. It feels like London Underground's own
version of "Train Doors will be closed 30 seconds before departure",
but until 30 seconds before you should still know which platform to
aim for!

Having been to Cockfosters (twice) today I made a point of observing the
operation of the dot matrix indicators (DMIs, although we mostly call
them TDs, Train Describers).

After the refurbishment of Cockfosters, there are two TDs just after you
come through the barriers. One is at the head of platform 1/2 and the
other at 3/4 (actually the doors are never opened to P2 but lets not go
there!). These indicate the platform of the next departure. They come
up when the voice announcement is made which I understand is a
disability discrimination requirement as I found out when I was involved
with the Picc. line DVA (Digital Voice Announcer) project. Then each
platform has its own TD.

When the announcement of the next train is made, the TD follows this.
In my experience this information will persist until about 5 seconds
after the train receives the signal to depart, at which point the
displays blank to the generic display. This is to discourage people
attempting to board a train which is now preparing to depart and by the
time you get there, the doors will be closed and it will be on its way.
It will appear to be that trains just sit there and depart sometimes as
it's not uncommon to take a minute or so to get away after receiving the
signal.

The next train will then be announced and the process starts all over
again.

It's worth bearing in mind that with a train departing every 2-4 minutes
it will often look like the system is giving no information. In these
circumstances, it's best to just wait for the next departure to be
announced.

Some thoughts here... If a train isn't shown it's best to wait behind
the platform displays until one is. All too often I see people get onto
the train they *think* will depart first, only to watch one from a
different platform sail off west. I assume you travel at peak morning
times; at these times, some of the departures are fresh out of the depot
and don't appear on the TD until they are in the platform. The vagaries
of the timetable mean that there is often a reversing train in the
platform which gets overtaken by the 'new' train.

Since the station refurb, my experience is that the TDs at CFS are very
reliable and should be trusted to give correct information.

Then there's the actual announcements at Cockfosters, which really
grate on me.
"Piccadilly Line, the next train to Heathrow T123 and 5 will depart
from Platform 1". Hmmm. I am being a pedant, but I would have thought
that "Piccadilly Line, the next train from Platform 1 is to Heathrow
T123 and 5". God that is pedantic. But indulge me.

Some of the staff are lovely : notably at Cockfosters, Oakwood,
Southgate and Arnos Grove - but I have never really encountered a
"bad" member of staff. Although last week, someone asked a man in a
London Underground uniform if the train he was walking towards was the
next one to leave and he shrugged his shoulders. He walked up to the
drivers cab, got in, waited and indeed his train was the next to
leave. So I can either take from that that the drivers don't even know
when they are about to depart and only go by the signals, or he was
just unhelpful.

Now, you see the problem is that whilst he may not have demonstrated the
best communication skills, he was broadly right.

All a driver knows (or needs to know) is Which is my train?, When do I
need to be there? and Where am I going? When a train is in the platform
at AGR, the only indication that it will be the next one out is the TD
showing the destination. If it shows nothing, then you have no idea if
your train or the one just pulling into platform 4 is the next to
depart.

I will always attempt to unravel the situation and give a best guess,
but then it is very often only that, a guess.

Oh, and if you see me around I expect a cheery hello!
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote on 25 April 2010 00:35:40 ...
In message
,
writes

Gwan then, I'll bite....

But my god, three months on and I am cursing the Piccadilly line
almost daily.

Why? It's a great line

It appears to me that a "Good Service" will invariably involve an
interminably slow journey between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove, an
extended pause at either Oakwood and/or Arnos Grove, or trains at
Arnos Grove that arrived after my one, departing first. Sometimes the
driver will tell you that the train that has just arrived will leave
first, but sometimes they don't. Minor Delays have seen me 15 minutes
or more late, and I dread to think what a severe delay is.

You really don't want to be there when there are severe delays

First of all, the booked time from Cockfosters to Green Park is 38
minutes; say 40 minutes for round figures. I would suggest that your
journey is rarely longer than 45 minutes and more often than not, closer
to the 38/40 minutes booked. I have not recently had any days when I've
been more than a couple of minutes late at any point.

I'm not surprised; 38 minutes is 5 minutes slower than it was in 1972.

The journey from Cockfosters to Arnos is a bit of a chore sometimes.
During the morning peak (and leading up to it) you will have trains
coming in to service from Cockfosters (east end), Cockfosters (west end)
and reversers at Arnos Grove, all to get the 28 trains per hour through
the centre section.

A mere 24 trains per hour currently. You ought to be able to manage 28
IMHO. In fact you had a 27 tph timetable a few years ago, and I never
had a credible explanation of why it was abandoned. I fail to see why
the Picc can't do better than 24 tph when the District/Circle does 28
despite the extra complications of its network.

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)