On May 25, 3:57*am, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2010 22:38:28 +0100, Chris *Tolley



(ukonline really) wrote:
chunkyoldcortina wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

If there ever was to be a diversion of the DC line service, then it
could be mitigated by what Andy suggested - a Watford to Euston
shuttle service. Not sure how do-able it would be to stop it at
Queen's Park, but that would make such a thing x times more useful.

I think a Watford to Paddington shuttle would be most useful, allowing better
connections to the GWML and Heathrow from the WCML (tube between Euston and
Paddington is a nightmare if you have any luggage).

So, you want the Bakerloo line to go to Watford again?

.. or the Rickmansworth branch rebuilt and extended via the originally
planned route to/past Uxbridge ?

Having thought about this before , I suspect you'd be better off
running via the existing Ricky station (extending it northwards to
offer a pair separate through platforms for each route), then swinging
south over a new viaduct running down the middle of Rectory Road's
separators, and then along the strip of land separating Batchworth and
Bury Lakes. Then you'd be back on the route without needing to reopen
the old Ricky station. If nothing else, you'd get much more useful
interchange.

Running south, I'm not sure what the best way to serve Harefield is.
I'm sure someone could come up with something sufficiently creative
without the station being too far out of the way.

The route into Uxbridge is still largely clear until you hit Uxbridge
Business Park's car park (which should be easy enough to run over),
but after then you'll have a difficult time threading a route down to
the GWML. If the Heathrow Hub idea did ever "take off" (if you'll
pardon the pun), then there might be motivation for solving the
problem, as from that point you have either the Colinbrook branch to
take over and extend into Heathrow, or a new tunnelled link heading
south and then into the western end of T5's station. If you were
prepared to fight the boat users, you could use the route of the canal
all the way, or spend some more money and run alongside it, as it's
clear /most/ (but by no means *all*) of the way. If you wanted to
serve Uxbridge Town centre however, then you're going to have to
tunnel, and tunnel hard; be it to extend the Met to the route on the
western edge of Uxbridge (under Grainges Yard/New Windsor St./
Rockingham Road), or the route itself to interchange with the existing
Met station (Under Sanderson Rd/Oxford Road/Uxbridge High St./Windsor
St/A408). A real shame the old surface alignments weren't protected.

On 25 May, 12:22, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2010 20:59:00 +0100, Basil Jet





wrote:
On 24/05/2010 18:36, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2010 15:26:35 +0100, chunkyoldcortina
*wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

If there ever was to be a diversion of the DC line service, then it
could be mitigated by what Andy suggested - a Watford to Euston
shuttle service. Not sure how do-able it would be to stop it at
Queen's Park, but that would make such a thing x times more useful.

I think a Watford to Paddington shuttle would be most useful, allowing better
connections to the GWML and Heathrow from the WCML (tube between Euston and
Paddington is a nightmare if you have any luggage).

That's an excellent idea.

No it's not.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. *Just as I am entitled to
mine. *;-)

A Crossrail branch to Watford Junction is, but was rejected
by the Crossrail team.

That I can understand, as a Watford to Crossrail service would not
make sense. *But a Watford to Heathrow service does make sense to
improve access to Heathrow Airport by public transport from the WCML
and its large catchment. *

Currently, most of these people drive to the airport. *Some masochists
go by rail via Euston, the Victoria Line to Green Park thence the
Piccadilly Line, or the Victoria Line to Oxford Circus then the
Bakerloo Line to Paddington, then Heathrow Express/Connect or walk to
Euston Square, Teacup Line and Heathrow Express/Connect. *Very few
people use the Green Line coach.


And some people change to the Bakerloo line (for Paddington) at Harrow
& Wealdstone, which is actually as quick and certainly less painful
for dragging luggage about than going via Euston.

The more I think of it - and the more I look at the alternatives - the
more attractive a Watford to Heathrow service looks.

I think a Milton Keynes - Heathrow service would be a better bet for
getting punters out of their car from further north, the original
Rugby - Brighton service certainly had plenty of passengers (with
luggage) for Gatwick Airport, so there is demand for WCML - airport
traffic; its replacement Milton Keynes - Croydon still also has a fair
few passengers asking about which platform at Clapham Junction for
Gatwick.

On 25/05/2010 12:22, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2010 20:59:00 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:
On 24/05/2010 18:36, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2010 15:26:35 +0100, chunkyoldcortina
wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

If there ever was to be a diversion of the DC line service, then it
could be mitigated by what Andy suggested - a Watford to Euston
shuttle service. Not sure how do-able it would be to stop it at
Queen's Park, but that would make such a thing x times more useful.

I think a Watford to Paddington shuttle would be most useful, allowing better
connections to the GWML and Heathrow from the WCML (tube between Euston and
Paddington is a nightmare if you have any luggage).


That's an excellent idea.

No it's not.


Well, you are entitled to your opinion. Just as I am entitled to
mine. ;-)


A Crossrail branch to Watford Junction is, but was rejected
by the Crossrail team.


That I can understand, as a Watford to Crossrail service would not
make sense. But a Watford to Heathrow service does make sense to
improve access to Heathrow Airport by public transport from the WCML
and its large catchment.

Currently, most of these people drive to the airport. Some masochists
go by rail via Euston, the Victoria Line to Green Park thence the
Piccadilly Line, or the Victoria Line to Oxford Circus then the
Bakerloo Line to Paddington, then Heathrow Express/Connect or walk to
Euston Square, Teacup Line and Heathrow Express/Connect. Very few
people use the Green Line coach.

The more I think of it - and the more I look at the alternatives - the
more attractive a Watford to Heathrow service looks.

Okay, but you didn't say Watford to Heathrow, you said Watford to
Paddington.

On May 25, 12:38*pm, Andy wrote:

On 25 May, 12:22, Bruce wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2010 20:59:00 +0100, Basil Jet
[snip]
A Crossrail branch to Watford Junction is, but was rejected
by the Crossrail team.

That I can understand, as a Watford to Crossrail service would not
make sense. *But a Watford to Heathrow service does make sense to
improve access to Heathrow Airport by public transport from the WCML
and its large catchment. *

Currently, most of these people drive to the airport. *Some masochists
go by rail via Euston, the Victoria Line to Green Park thence the
Piccadilly Line, or the Victoria Line to Oxford Circus then the
Bakerloo Line to Paddington, then Heathrow Express/Connect or walk to
Euston Square, Teacup Line and Heathrow Express/Connect. *Very few
people use the Green Line coach.

And some people change to the Bakerloo line (for Paddington) at Harrow
& Wealdstone, which is actually as quick and certainly less painful
for dragging luggage about than going via Euston.

Hadn't though of that. The train needs to stop at H&W of course.

I'm sure the following route idea will be dismissed out of hand by
some, but how about the Southern service to West Brompton, then a v.
short walk round the corner to Earl's Court Underground station for
the Piccadilly Line to Heathrow.

The stations really are close:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/oldmap.sr...&y=178250&ar=N


The more I think of it - and the more I look at the alternatives - the
more attractive a Watford to Heathrow service looks.

I think a Milton Keynes - Heathrow service would be a better bet for
getting punters out of their car from further north, the original
Rugby - Brighton service certainly had plenty of passengers (with
luggage) for Gatwick Airport, so there is demand for WCML - airport
traffic; its replacement Milton Keynes - Croydon still also has a fair
few passengers asking about which platform at Clapham Junction for
Gatwick.

Shame they don't change at East Croydon, where it's rather easier -
ramps for step-free access, plus only six platforms to contend with.
Perhaps announcements on-board the Southern WLL service should make
this option clear (and journey planners tweaked accordingly).

On May 25, 12:10*pm, chunkyoldcortina wrote:

Zen83237 wrote:
[snip]
Why would anybody want to go to Heathrow from Watford via Paddington at
horrendous cost when there are perfectly good coaches going direct.

Have you ever used the coach service?

Having to negotiate your way between your terminal and "heathrow central"
(probably the most depressing place to be when you've just got off a 10 hour
flight, with no decent comfortable waiting area) and then buy a separate
ticket for the coach, and then wait for it to turn up, get crammed into tiny
seats and then spend an hour in traffic on the M25, get soaked by rain when
you walk from the coach stop into Watford Junction station, and then have to
buy another ticket for the train element of your journey is not my idea of fun...

Few thoughts - I dunno if you did this journey before or after the new
coach station building at Heathrow, which opened a few years ago...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35232445@N03/3784081917/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35232445@N03/3363297672/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/n0s0ap/515877109/

Hardly paradise, but not sure it's the end of the world either.

Is there no through ticketing available? I know National Express
ticket desk at Heathrow can (or at least could) sell through coach
+rail tickets for Railair journeys, e.g. via Reading - one would hope
they can do so via the Green Line coach to Watford Jn (as it's sort of
a replacement for the Virgin Trains Railair coach link twixt LHR and
Watford Jn).

Also, and I'm no expert on the M25, but I think the widening of the
motorway from 3 to 4 lanes to the west of London near Heathrow might
have kinda sorted the congestion issue around there.


The lack of any decent train service to Heathrow is why so many people in the
catchment of the WCML north of watford will rent a one way car, pay for a
taxi or even put up with the coach service rather than take the train.

A quick straw poll around this Milton Keynes office suggests that people
would take the train particularly for business but also for leisure to
Heathrow if it was easy to do so and competitive with other ways of getting
there.
And I wasn't just talking about Heathrow, but destinations on the GWML in
general.

Interesting thoughts, no doubt...

On Mon, 24 May 2010, Mizter T wrote:

On May 24, 1:53*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sun, 23 May 2010, lonelytraveller wrote:

On 20 May, 21:12, Neil Williams
wrote:

On Thu, 20 May 2010 11:28:48 -0700 (PDT), E27002
wrote:

Do we think that the Watford DC lines will always run into their
London Terminus? *Somehow I think eventually they will run thru
Primrose Hill and on to Camden Road in order to link up with the rest
of the Orbital Network.

That has been considered, but it's frequently been knocked back as
demand into Euston is pretty high.

You make the incredibly stupid mistake of assuming that nearly everyone
travelling to Euston is only going as far as Euston. For everyone else,
the north london line makes plenty of decent connections, or at least it
would if they could be bothered to reopen York Road.

So let me get this straight: if they reopened York Road, at the cost of
god knows how many hundreds of millions of pounds, then the NLL option
would offer "plenty of decent connections". As opposed to the Euston
option, which costs nothing, and offers plenty of extremely good
connections. Okay, i can agree with that.

Alternatively, there could be an express canalbus service from Camden
(for Camden Rd NLL) to St. Pancras/ Kings Cross, just down the road from
Euston...

No, as we've discussed before, INDISPUTABLY the ONLY option is for TfL to
restore the Fleet to the surface, and run gondola services from Camden
Town (right by which it passes) to King's Cross, with branches to Euston
and the City. Map:

http://www.fluffhouse.org.uk/lynnette/stuff/mappe2.jpg

tom

--
Vive la chimie, en particulier, et la connaissance en general. --
Herve This

On Tue, 25 May 2010, lonelytraveller wrote:

On 24 May, 13:53, Tom Anderson wrote:

So let me get this straight: if they reopened York Road, at the cost of
god knows how many hundreds of millions of pounds, then the NLL option
would offer "plenty of decent connections". As opposed to the Euston
option, which costs nothing, and offers plenty of extremely good
connections. Okay, i can agree with that.

You're assuming that that would be the only major reason for opening
York Road - that the cost would be primarily to aid the NLL. It
wouldn't. The biggest commercial construction project in Europe is
happening right next to York Road station.

It's also close enough to King's Cross that that doesn't matter, and the
disbenefit to Picc passengers slowed down by passing through it would
outweigh any benefits that did accrue. Reopening York Road has a negative
benefit-to-cost ratio, so unless there is substantial benefit to the NLL,
it's a non-starter.

tom

--
Vive la chimie, en particulier, et la connaissance en general. --
Herve This

On 25 May, 14:30, Mizter T wrote:

Few thoughts - I dunno if you did this journey before or after the new
coach station building at Heathrow, which opened a few years ago...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35232445@N03/3784081917/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35232445@N03/3363297672/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/n0s0ap/515877109/

Hardly paradise, but not sure it's the end of the world either.

It's an interesting building - it appears to have an inflatable roof.

I have had some poor experiences with the staff, though - the
dispatchers I have encountered seem ignorant and rude. This contrasts
to Gatwick, where I have had excellent service from the NEx staff.

Neil

On Tue, 25 May 2010 12:44:28 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:
On 25/05/2010 12:22, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2010 20:59:00 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:
On 24/05/2010 18:36, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2010 15:26:35 +0100, chunkyoldcortina
wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

If there ever was to be a diversion of the DC line service, then it
could be mitigated by what Andy suggested - a Watford to Euston
shuttle service. Not sure how do-able it would be to stop it at
Queen's Park, but that would make such a thing x times more useful.

I think a Watford to Paddington shuttle would be most useful, allowing better
connections to the GWML and Heathrow from the WCML (tube between Euston and
Paddington is a nightmare if you have any luggage).


That's an excellent idea.

No it's not.


Well, you are entitled to your opinion. Just as I am entitled to
mine. ;-)


A Crossrail branch to Watford Junction is, but was rejected
by the Crossrail team.


That I can understand, as a Watford to Crossrail service would not
make sense. But a Watford to Heathrow service does make sense to
improve access to Heathrow Airport by public transport from the WCML
and its large catchment.

Currently, most of these people drive to the airport. Some masochists
go by rail via Euston, the Victoria Line to Green Park thence the
Piccadilly Line, or the Victoria Line to Oxford Circus then the
Bakerloo Line to Paddington, then Heathrow Express/Connect or walk to
Euston Square, Teacup Line and Heathrow Express/Connect. Very few
people use the Green Line coach.

The more I think of it - and the more I look at the alternatives - the
more attractive a Watford to Heathrow service looks.

Okay, but you didn't say Watford to Heathrow, you said Watford to
Paddington.


I said:
Another possibility would be Watford Junction to Heathrow.


But you carefully snipped that bit. ;-)

On May 25, 1:49*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2010, Mizter T wrote:

On May 24, 1:53*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sun, 23 May 2010, lonelytraveller wrote:
[snip]
You make the incredibly stupid mistake of assuming that nearly everyone
travelling to Euston is only going as far as Euston. For everyone else,
the north london line makes plenty of decent connections, or at least it
would if they could be bothered to reopen York Road.

So let me get this straight: if they reopened York Road, at the cost of
god knows how many hundreds of millions of pounds, then the NLL option
would offer "plenty of decent connections". As opposed to the Euston
option, which costs nothing, and offers plenty of extremely good
connections. Okay, i can agree with that.

Alternatively, there could be an express canalbus service from Camden
(for Camden Rd NLL) to St. Pancras/ Kings Cross, just down the road from
Euston...

No, as we've discussed before, INDISPUTABLY the ONLY option is for TfL to
restore the Fleet to the surface, and run gondola services from Camden
Town (right by which it passes) to King's Cross, with branches to Euston
and the City. Map:

http://www.fluffhouse.org.uk/lynnette/stuff/mappe2.jpg

I know a man who'd be intrigued by your ideas. He's called the Mayor,
and he can be found in a glass bollock next to the River Thames.
Alternatively you could approach his chum Mr Gilligan, who is a bit of
a glass bollock (whatever that might mean), who could write a policy
paper about it.