On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote:
Some pictures:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&searc...."east+lo ndon+line"+2010

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._eastern_entra...
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...t_Brockley.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...st_Croydon.JPG
Thank you so much for posting. I appreciate being able to see the new
service in operation from afar. I note the implication that Brockley
Station is now "owned" by London Overground. That is to say that the
TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo.

On May 24, 7:06*pm, E27002 wrote:

On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote: Some pictures:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&searc...."east+lo ndon+line"+2010

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...rance_2010.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...t_Brockley.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...st_Croydon.JPG

Thank you so much for posting. *I appreciate being able to see the new
service in operation from afar. *I note the implication that Brockley
Station is now "owned" by London Overground. *That is to say that the
TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo.

Don't want to bore anyone too much, but a correction and a
clarification follows...

(a) The double-arrow device is not the Network Rail logo, rather the
'National Rail logo' - that's in inverted commas because "National
Rail" is more of a concept than an actual entity, and it's really the
British Rail logo which has lived on after privatisation - the
copyright owned by the SoS Transport and is freely licensed for use by
the TOCs, and indeed my understanding is that it's also a requirement
at stations that are part of the National Rail network (or some such -
not sure if that's an ORR requirement of all stations, or a
requirement made by the DfT of operators providing franchised services
- and when I think about it I can't recall it appearing anywhere
outside St Pancras station, which is of course owned by LCR, albeit
managed on a day to day basis under contract by Network Rail... oh,
and did I say that LCR is currently wholly owned by central
government... confused? That was my intention!)

(b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain
in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks
above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London
Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL
- but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in
'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc.

Mizter T wrote:

(b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain
in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks
above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London
Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL
- but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in
'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc.

Everything in their own 'signs standards' suggests that sign is the wrong
way round, doesn't it?

Paul S

On May 24, 11:40*am, Mizter T wrote:
On May 24, 7:06*pm, E27002 wrote:

On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote: Some pictures:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&searc..."east+lon don+line"+2010

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._eastern_entra....
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...t_Brockley.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...st_Croydon.JPG

Thank you so much for posting. *I appreciate being able to see the new
service in operation from afar. *I note the implication that Brockley
Station is now "owned" by London Overground. *That is to say that the
TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo.

Don't want to bore anyone too much, but a correction and a
clarification follows...

(a) The double-arrow device is not the Network Rail logo, rather the
'National Rail logo' - that's in inverted commas because "National
Rail" is more of a concept than an actual entity, and it's really the
British Rail logo which has lived on after privatisation - the
copyright owned by the SoS Transport and is freely licensed for use by
the TOCs, and indeed my understanding is that it's also a requirement
at stations that are part of the National Rail network (or some such -
not sure if that's an ORR requirement of all stations, or a
requirement made by the DfT of operators providing franchised services
- and when I think about it I can't recall it appearing anywhere
outside St Pancras station, which is of course owned by LCR, albeit
managed on a day to day basis under contract by Network Rail... oh,
and did I say that LCR is currently wholly owned by central
government... confused? That was my intention!)

(b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain
in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks
above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London
Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL
- but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in
'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc.

Thank you for clarifying this Mizter T. I know that the real estate
at Brockley belonged to Network Rail. My understanding is that
according to convention the body with "operational ownership" had
their logo placed uppermost. And, AFIK (please correct me) the
original East London stretch remains the property (in the real estate
sense) of TfL.

On 24 May, 19:51, E27002 wrote:
On May 24, 11:40*am, Mizter T wrote:





On May 24, 7:06*pm, E27002 wrote:

On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote: Some pictures:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&searc..."east+lon don+line"+2010

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...al_Palace..JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...al_Palace..JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._eastern_entra...
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...t_Brockley.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...st_Croydon.JPG

Thank you so much for posting. *I appreciate being able to see the new
service in operation from afar. *I note the implication that Brockley
Station is now "owned" by London Overground. *That is to say that the
TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo.

Don't want to bore anyone too much, but a correction and a
clarification follows...

(a) The double-arrow device is not the Network Rail logo, rather the
'National Rail logo' - that's in inverted commas because "National
Rail" is more of a concept than an actual entity, and it's really the
British Rail logo which has lived on after privatisation - the
copyright owned by the SoS Transport and is freely licensed for use by
the TOCs, and indeed my understanding is that it's also a requirement
at stations that are part of the National Rail network (or some such -
not sure if that's an ORR requirement of all stations, or a
requirement made by the DfT of operators providing franchised services
- and when I think about it I can't recall it appearing anywhere
outside St Pancras station, which is of course owned by LCR, albeit
managed on a day to day basis under contract by Network Rail... oh,
and did I say that LCR is currently wholly owned by central
government... confused? That was my intention!)

(b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain
in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks
above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London
Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL
- but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in
'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc.

Thank you for clarifying this Mizter T. *I know that the real estate
at Brockley belonged to Network Rail. *My understanding is that
according to convention the body with "operational ownership" had
their logo placed uppermost. * And, AFIK (please correct me) the
original East London stretch remains the property (in the real estate
sense) of TfL.

Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley
station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London
Overground ..."

I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules
imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of
totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the
rush hour.

On May 24, 7:46*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
(b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain
in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks
above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London
Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL
- but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in
'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc.

Everything in their own 'signs standards' suggests that sign is the wrong
way round, doesn't it?

Not sure about that actually - if memory serves me right, most of the
signs on the NLL are that way around, with the roundel at the top...
let me see... yes, roundel at the top, NR symbol below - examples:

Canonbury
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/2441197183/
Dalston Kingsland
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55935853@N00/2428413915/
West Hampstead
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55935853@N00/3015550574/

This is what the TfL design standard for LO signs says (on page 21):

---quote---
Where an Overground station interchanges with the rest of the National
Rail network and that property is owned by National Rail, it is the
National Rail logo that is displayed before the Overground roundel.
---/quote---

I think this is 'interchange' in terms of how it's done on the Tube
map - i.e. a new interchange opportunity, rather than two services
running along the same route for some distance. Under that reading
there wouldn't be that many places where this would apply - West
Croydon, Harrow & Wealdstone, Shepherd's Bush perhaps - though w.r.t.
the latter whoever designed/authorised this seems to think not:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/3958791927/

Open to interpretation I suppose.

BTW, couldn't find Flickr photos of any H&W signage - did find this of
West Croydon which I believe was taken by a certain PC of this parish,
looks as though the signage revolution / LO signage police haven't got
there yet.

On May 24, 8:07*pm, MIG wrote:

On 24 May, 19:51, E27002 wrote:

On May 24, 11:40*am, Mizter T wrote:

On May 24, 7:06*pm, E27002 wrote:

On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote: Some pictures:
[snip]
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...rance_2010.JPG
[snip]
Thank you so much for posting. *I appreciate being able to see the new
service in operation from afar. *I note the implication that Brockley
Station is now "owned" by London Overground. *That is to say that the
TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo.

[snip]

(b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain
in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks
above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London
Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL
- but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in
'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc.

Thank you for clarifying this Mizter T. *I know that the real estate
at Brockley belonged to Network Rail. *My understanding is that
according to convention the body with "operational ownership" had
their logo placed uppermost. * And, AFIK (please correct me) the
original East London stretch remains the property (in the real estate
sense) of TfL.

Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley
station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London
Overground ..."

I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules
imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of
totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the
rush hour.

No, you assume wrong - Brockley and all the other stations south of NX
Gate that the ELL calls at, including Crystal Palace and West Croydon,
are managed by LO and have been since 20 September 2009 - this was the
date that the new south central franchise began, and so I was
considered an opportune date to transfer these stations across to LO.
(Of course the south central franchise holder didn't change but
remained Govia's Southern.) The legal lettering on the ticket machines
changed at this time, but outwardly little else did - the staff got
new LO uniforms more recently. (I assume the announcements you heard
were long-line ones made by Southern's control centre as part of an
interim arrangement - presumably such announcements will now be made
from the new LO ELL control centre at NX Gate.)

Also, a week or so ago I dug up various bits and pieces on the web
about the situation at Brockley - seems TfL are aware of it, not least
because of the complaints that have come their way. There was also
talk of plans for a rebuild at Brockley so as to accommodate the
expected growth in passenger numbers that the ELL is expected to
generate.

Mizter T wrote:
On May 24, 7:46 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
(b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain
in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks
above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London
Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator
LOROL - but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more
involved in 'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc.

Everything in their own 'signs standards' suggests that sign is the
wrong way round, doesn't it?

Not sure about that actually - if memory serves me right, most of the
signs on the NLL are that way around, with the roundel at the top...
let me see... yes, roundel at the top, NR symbol below - examples:

---quote---
Where an Overground station interchanges with the rest of the National
Rail network and that property is owned by National Rail, it is the
National Rail logo that is displayed before the Overground roundel.
---/quote---

I've just thought of something else - which might add to the confusion.

The design standards refer to 'owned by National Rail' - if we read that as
'owned by a National Rail TOC', where 'owned by' is short for 'station
facility operator is' it makes sense. The station in this case is 'owned by
LO' even though the freeholder is Network Rail. IYSWIM...

Paul S

MIG wrote:

Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley
station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London
Overground ..."

I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules
imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of
totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the
rush hour.

No, I think the staff were 'TUPE'd over last September, (or it might have
been at the SN franchise change date), but the automatic and 'human' PA
announcements are still run by SN, from their existing control centre. Given
the auto announcments are fully integrated with the signalling system, you'd
expect that to take a bit of altering...

Paul S

On 24 May, 20:30, Mizter T wrote:
On May 24, 8:07*pm, MIG wrote:





On 24 May, 19:51, E27002 wrote:

On May 24, 11:40*am, Mizter T wrote:

On May 24, 7:06*pm, E27002 wrote:

On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote: Some pictures:
[snip]
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._eastern_entra...
[snip]
Thank you so much for posting. *I appreciate being able to see the new
service in operation from afar. *I note the implication that Brockley
Station is now "owned" by London Overground. *That is to say that the
TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo.

[snip]

(b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain
in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks
above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London
Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL
- but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in
'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc.

Thank you for clarifying this Mizter T. *I know that the real estate
at Brockley belonged to Network Rail. *My understanding is that
according to convention the body with "operational ownership" had
their logo placed uppermost. * And, AFIK (please correct me) the
original East London stretch remains the property (in the real estate
sense) of TfL.

Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley
station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London
Overground ..."

I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules
imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of
totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the
rush hour.

No, you assume wrong - Brockley and all the other stations south of NX
Gate that the ELL calls at, including Crystal Palace and West Croydon,
are managed by LO and have been since 20 September 2009 - this was the
date that the new south central franchise began, and so I was
considered an opportune date to transfer these stations across to LO.

I knew that bit, but I guessed that maybe they had subcontracted the
work to Southern, at least till LO services were running. No doubt
it's the same actual people in any case.

The response on the ground to all the complaints seemed to be on the
lines of "we're not permitted to open the gate; you can complain to
these people" offer LO complaint forms. No sense of being part of a
team, more like a distant imposition.

Anyway, it's not a great advert for the improved ambience that LO was
supposed to bring to desolate NLL and Southern stations.


(Of course the south central franchise holder didn't change but
remained Govia's Southern.) The legal lettering on the ticket machines
changed at this time, but outwardly little else did - the staff got
new LO uniforms more recently. (I assume the announcements you heard
were long-line ones made by Southern's control centre as part of an
interim arrangement - presumably such announcements will now be made
from the new LO ELL control centre at NX Gate.)

Also, a week or so ago I dug up various bits and pieces on the web
about the situation at Brockley - seems TfL are aware of it, not least
because of the complaints that have come their way. There was also
talk of plans for a rebuild at Brockley so as to accommodate the
expected growth in passenger numbers that the ELL is expected to
generate.

There has been quite significant building work recently, with some new
landscaping and so on. Strange they'd do that only to have to it over
again.