Would it be possible for LO to run services right round to Shepherd's
Bush via Crystal Palace? ITSM there are through platforms at Clapham
Junction already used by Southern services towards Watford and beyond.

Then again, perhaps more pertinent, would it be desirable as well as
possible?!

On 25 May, 12:14, "Dr. Sunil" wrote:
Would it be possible for LO to run services right round to Shepherd's
Bush via Crystal Palace? ITSM there are through platforms at Clapham
Junction already used by Southern services towards Watford and beyond.

Then again, perhaps more pertinent, would it be desirable as well as
possible?!

I don't think it would be desirable.

The victoria - brighton route is a mainline, ideally it needs 4
tracks. The kent - victoria route is also a mainline, and ideally
needs 4 tracks.

In london, these two 4 track routes each split into two 2 track
routes. Kent-victoria goes via peckham rye and alternatively via herne
hill. Brighton - Victoria goes via Streatham Common and alternatively
via Crystal Palace.

If you have LO running beyond Crystal Palace, it partly blocks one of
those two routes, which will cause major traffic issues.

The only point to the LO route to Crystal Palace is that there's a
Crystal Palace - Beckenham Route that doesn't have a station where it
intersects the main LO route - Crystal Palace is the nearest station
and there's a line ready to use already running in to it.

You could abandon the LO route to Crystal Palace entirely if they
rejigged the Crystal Palace - Beckenham Route to cross the main LO
route adjacent to a station.

The Crystal Palace - Beckenham Route is one of those low use things.
It doesn't go further than Beckenham (as far as current train usage is
concerned), and Croydon Tramlink keeps being proposed to take it over
as an extension. If tramlink does that, they could probably adjust the
route slightly to stop at a station on the main LO route, meaning that
LO could abandon Crystal Palace entirely.

On May 25, 12:14*pm, "Dr. Sunil" wrote:
Would it be possible for LO to run services right round to Shepherd's
Bush via Crystal Palace? ITSM there are through platforms at Clapham
Junction already used by Southern services towards Watford and beyond.

It would be possible - and I think Paul C recently said that it was an
idea is on TfL London Rail's radar (but that's a *very different*
thing from it actually happening).


Then again, perhaps more pertinent, would it be desirable as well as
possible?!

One could certainly make a case for it. Do bear in mind though that
the rail network south of the river is pretty busy, so working out how
to realistically slot in new services such as this wouldn't be a walk
in the park.

Oh, and as Mr Byrne correctly diagnosed, there's no money left.

On May 25, 12:35*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On May 25, 12:14*pm, "Dr. Sunil" wrote:

Would it be possible for LO to run services right round to Shepherd's
Bush via Crystal Palace? ITSM there are through platforms at Clapham
Junction already used by Southern services towards Watford and beyond.

It would be possible - and I think Paul C recently said that it was an
idea is on TfL London Rail's radar (but that's a *very different*
thing from it actually happening).

It was a reference to the May Modern Railways which has a London
Overground feature in it. There was a quote saying TfL were
considering extending the CP journeys to Clapham Junction via Balham.
They'd terminate in Platform 17 (I assume that makes sense to those
who are familiar with CJ). There was no more detail than this in the
article. As a non expert on the rail network south of the Thames I
couldn't say how feasible or otherwise the TfL idea actually is.

--
Paul C
via Google

On 25 May, 13:59, Paul Corfield wrote:

It was a reference to the May Modern Railways which has a London
Overground feature in it. There was a quote saying TfL were
considering extending the CP journeys to Clapham Junction via Balham.
They'd terminate in Platform 17 (I assume that makes sense to those
who are familiar with CJ). There was no more detail than this in the
article. *As a non expert on the rail network south of the Thames I
couldn't say how feasible or otherwise the TfL idea actually is.

Platform 17 is the one used by Southbound Southern services coming off
the West london Line; Platform 16 is used by Northbound trains on this
route. Platform 17 is the last platform in the station, and has a
very tight curve on it.

The London Overground services into Clapham Junction use platform 2,
on the opposite side of the station. Beyond the station this track
only leads into some sigings, which seem to be disused. There used to
be another track on this route, in platform 1. This track was lifted
many years ago, but is due to be re-instated, presumably for the
service from Surrey Quays to Clapham junction, which is due to start
in 2012.

wrote in message

On 25 May, 13:59, Paul Corfield wrote:

It was a reference to the May Modern Railways which has a London
Overground feature in it. There was a quote saying TfL were
considering extending the CP journeys to Clapham Junction via Balham.
They'd terminate in Platform 17 (I assume that makes sense to those
who are familiar with CJ). There was no more detail than this in the
article. As a non expert on the rail network south of the Thames I
couldn't say how feasible or otherwise the TfL idea actually is.

Platform 17 is the one used by Southbound Southern services coming off
the West london Line; Platform 16 is used by Northbound trains on this
route. Platform 17 is the last platform in the station, and has a
very tight curve on it.

The London Overground services into Clapham Junction use platform 2,
on the opposite side of the station. Beyond the station this track
only leads into some sigings, which seem to be disused. There used to
be another track on this route, in platform 1. This track was lifted
many years ago, but is due to be re-instated, presumably for the
service from Surrey Quays to Clapham junction, which is due to start
in 2012.

No, the old platform 1 track will not be reinstitated.

In message
,
writes

Platform 17 is the one used by Southbound Southern services coming off
the West london Line; Platform 16 is used by Northbound trains on this
route. Platform 17 is the last platform in the station, and has a
very tight curve on it.

"Mind the VERY BIG gap!".

The London Overground services into Clapham Junction use platform 2,
on the opposite side of the station. Beyond the station this track
only leads into some sigings, which seem to be disused.

I believe that at least of the space is earmarked for storage when the
ELLX to Clapham Junction is built.

There used to be another track on this route, in platform 1. This
track was lifted many years ago, but is due to be re-instated,
presumably for the service from Surrey Quays to Clapham junction, which
is due to start in 2012.

No, as discussed recently, that will use the western end of platform 2
(accessed via the central siding between platforms 2 and 3, so that the
WLL terminators can still use the eastern end of platform 2). Platform 1
will remain unused, due to the cost of restoration work needed to the
viaduct at that point.

--
Paul Terry

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 02:44:02PM +0100, Recliner wrote:
wrote in message

The London Overground services into Clapham Junction use platform 2,
on the opposite side of the station. Beyond the station this track
only leads into some sigings, which seem to be disused. There used to
be another track on this route, in platform 1. This track was lifted
many years ago, but is due to be re-instated, presumably for the
service from Surrey Quays to Clapham junction, which is due to start
in 2012.
No, the old platform 1 track will not be reinstitated.

Huh. So much for any possibility of actually running a frequent service
then. In the peaks, trains between Willesden Junction and Clapham
Junction are *rammed*, and especially southbound in the evening peak,
people are often left on the platforms at Olympia and further south
because there's no room on the train. That's really not acceptable when
there's only four trains an hour.

--
David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age

THIS IS THE LANGUAGE POLICE
PUT DOWN YOUR THESAURUS
STEP AWAY FROM THE CLICHE

On 25 May, 13:59, Paul Corfield wrote:
On May 25, 12:35*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On May 25, 12:14*pm, "Dr. Sunil" wrote:

Would it be possible for LO to run services right round to Shepherd's
Bush via Crystal Palace? ITSM there are through platforms at Clapham
Junction already used by Southern services towards Watford and beyond..

It would be possible - and I think Paul C recently said that it was an
idea is on TfL London Rail's radar (but that's a *very different*
thing from it actually happening).

It was a reference to the May Modern Railways which has a London
Overground feature in it. There was a quote saying TfL were
considering extending the CP journeys to Clapham Junction via Balham.
They'd terminate in Platform 17 (I assume that makes sense to those
who are familiar with CJ). There was no more detail than this in the
article. *As a non expert on the rail network south of the Thames I
couldn't say how feasible or otherwise the TfL idea actually is.

--
Paul C
via Google

Crash course on South London Railways (this refers to lines, not
current train use)
-Main Terminuses
---Blackfriars has Brighton Lines and the Sutton Line
---London Bridge has Brighton Lines, North Kent Lines, and Inner South
London Line
-----The Inner South London Line is a physically distinct line from
the mainlines, unlike the Outer South London line.
---Victoria has Brighton Lines and Mid Kent Lines. (the station is
physically split in half, with two distinct styles, as well)
---Waterloo has Windsor Lines and South Western Lines
-Wide rail corridor between Waterloo & Clapham Junction
---Brighton Lines from Victoria join it.
---Splits at Clapham Junction to (from north to south)
-----(a) The Windsor Lines
-----(b) The South Western Lines
-----(c) The Brighton Lines
-The Victoria-Brighton Lines split in two at Balham and meet again at
Selhurst Junction. The two alternative paths are
---(a) via West Norwood Junction (and Crystal Palace)
---(b) via Streatham Junction
-The Mid Kent Lines split at Brixton and meet again at Beckenham
Junction. The two alternative paths are
---(a) via Loughborough Junction (and Peckham Rye)
---(b) via Herne Hill (and Penge)
-The Sutton Line
---intersects all four routes to Victoria at (north to south)
------(a) Loughborough Junction
------(b) Herne Hill
------(c) Tulse Hill via a short branch to West Norwood Junction
------(d) Streatham Junction
---terminates in a "d" shaped loop between (clockwise)
------(a) Streatham Junction
------(b) Sutton
------(c) Wimbledon
------(d) Streatham Junction again
-Wide rail corridor between London Bridge and a point west of Surrey
Quays
---Split at London Bridge into (north to south)
----(a) North Kent lines to Cannon Street
----(b) North Kent lines to Charing Cross
----(c) Brighton lines to Blackfriars
----(d) terminating North Kent & Brighton lines
---The Brighton lines are in the wrong place. Thameslink 2000 builds a
new flyunder for them to reach Blackfriars without crossing the tracks
of the Kent lines.
---Split near Surrey Quays into (north to south)
------(a) North Kent lines, which quickly split again into (north to
south)
---------(i) route via Greenwich
---------(ii) other routes - next station = New Cross Gate
------(b) Brighton Lines - next station = New Cross
------(c) Inner South London Line - next station = South Bermondsey
-The London Bridge to Brighton lines meet the Victoria to Brighton
lines at Selhurst Junction
-The Inner South London line
---splits at Peckham Rye into
------(a) the main Inner South London Line to Clapham Junction
------(b) a branch to Tulse Hill (this is currently used to run a
local Z shaped service between London Bridge and Croydon)
-ELL
---phase 1 uses the slow Brighton lines. The curve to Crystal Palace
is an extra curve, not one of the routes listed above.
---phase 2 uses the main Inner South London Line
-All routes are 2 track apart from
---(a) wide rail corridors
------(i) between Waterloo & Clapham Junction
------(ii) between London Bridge & a point west of Surrey Quays
---(b) 4 track mainlines
------(i) The South Western lines
------(ii) The Brighton Lines from Clapham Junction to Selhurst
Junction via Streatham Junction
------(iii) The Brighton Lines from London Bridge to Selhurst Junction
------(iv) The North Kent Lines (not via Greenwich)
-The following main routes need four tracks due to usage:
----(a) The South Western lines
--------achieved by a 4 track route
----(b) The Victoria - Brighton lines
--------achieved by a 4 track route and a further 2 track route
----(c) The London Bridge - Brighton lines
--------achieved by a 4 track route
----(d) The Mid Kent lines
--------achieved by two 2 track routes
----(e) The North Kent Lines lines
--------achieved by a a 4 track route and a further 2 track route

The Balham - crystal palace route is the 2 track route forming part of
the Victoria - Brighton lines. You could say this isn't needed as
there is already a 4 track route, and could be reused by the ELL. But
the routes through Tulse hill use part of the 4 track route:
(a) the London Bridge - Croydon Z-shaped route. With ELL phase 1 using
the slow Brighton lines, this route forms a relief line for the trains
that used to use the slow Brighton lines.
(b) the Blackfriars - Sutton line is currently only a local service
for Sutton. With Thameslink 2000, additional trains from Blackfriars
will use this route, and then branch off onto the main 4-track
Victoria-Brighton lines.

So there basically isn't an easy way to free up any capacity for a
Crystal Palace to Anywhere West extension of the ELL.

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 08:13:32PM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
I know it is basically impossible to show all the variants but a proper
schematic map which showed the service patterns and perhaps coded them
(I know we've done this debate recently with a certain German gentleman)
would be an aid to absorbing how the network works and more particularly
links between certain places.

It could be done with a schematic map which changed with time. One day,
I'll learn Flash and maybe put something like that together.

--
David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club"

There are many different types of sausages. The best are
from the north of England. The wurst are from Germany.
-- seen in alt.2eggs...