On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 23:22:22 +0100, Neil Williams
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 22:13:18 +0100, Bruce
wrote:
They would not be so cool if the service was as frequent, or the
trains as long as on most Underground lines.

To be fair, the Loop frequency is about every 5 minutes (4 New
Brighton, 4 West Kirby, 2 Chester, 2 Ellesmere Port) which isn't far
off parts of LU off peak. And 6 cars of 50x aren't far off the
length, though admittedly more trains are 3.


To be fair, I think those figures rather prove my point!

Tube lines seem to have a headway of 2 minutes and a typical Tube
train has 7 or 8 cars.

In article
,
(E27002) wrote:

IIRC, and it was a LONG time ago: DMUs ran through to the Midland
Suburban area from Moorgate. Loco hauled stock ran thru to the GN
suburbs. At some point the GN trains changed over to DMU and then
ceased altogether, and the tunels up thru Kings Cross Closed.

The down tunnel was particularly interesting because the trains
literally came up Hotel Curve, into the platfrom, on the suburban
side
of Kings Cross. It was a sight to behold. I remember feeling some
regret when the service ended.

There were loco-hauled GN trains until the service ceased for the GN
electrification. They were the last non-corridor suburban stock too.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 09:56:27 +0100, Bruce
wrote:
Tube lines seem to have a headway of 2 minutes and a typical Tube
train has 7 or 8 cars.

Frequencies on the Tube are often lower off-peak and the coaches are
a bit shorter.

I can't see it making much difference, though. The Merseyrail
loop/link tunnels are newer, larger, better-ventilated and cooled by
the water. Even with more trains I can't see them getting as hot.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:03:16 +0100, Neil Williams
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 09:56:27 +0100, Bruce
wrote:
Tube lines seem to have a headway of 2 minutes and a typical Tube
train has 7 or 8 cars.

Frequencies on the Tube are often lower off-peak and the coaches are
a bit shorter.


But they carry far more people, each of whom is emitting 150 watts of
heat sitting down, rather more when standing and even more when
walking.


I can't see it making much difference, though. The Merseyrail
loop/link tunnels are newer, larger, better-ventilated and cooled by
the water. Even with more trains I can't see them getting as hot.


Obviously the tunnels are larger, but they are not better ventilated.
London Underground's ventilation systems are very much more powerful.
They need to be, because of both the greater frequency of longer
trains and the very much greater number of passengers. I suspect the
daily throughput of passengers on, for example, the Central Line is an
order of magnitude greater than that on Liverpool's Loop Line.

I think the water is probably more of a bonus than a significant
factor, but it does help.

On Jun 4, 3:01*am, wrote:
In article
,

(E27002) wrote:
IIRC, and it was a LONG time ago: DMUs ran through to the Midland
Suburban area from Moorgate. *Loco hauled stock ran thru to the GN
suburbs. *At some point the GN trains changed over to DMU and then
ceased altogether, and the tunels up thru Kings Cross Closed.

The down tunnel was particularly interesting because the trains
literally came up Hotel Curve, into the platfrom, on the suburban
side
of Kings Cross. It was a sight to behold. *I remember feeling some
regret when the service ended.

There were loco-hauled GN trains until the service ceased for the GN
electrification. They were the last non-corridor suburban stock too.

Thank you for that. It is so long ago that I had a hard time
remembering. I do recall seeing a train come up between the platform
faces on the Kings Cross suburban side. I suspect that the
arrangement was unique.

On Jun 3, 11:42*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"E27002" wrote



The down tunnel was particularly interesting because the trains
literally came up Hotel Curve, into the platfrom, on the suburban side
of Kings Cross. It was a sight to behold. *I remember feeling some
regret when the service ended.

The Hotel Curve must have been particularly horrible for loco crews in steam
days. As well as the suburban passenger service there was a heavy
cross-London freight service. The Hotel Curve was on a 7 chain radius, with
part of it climbing at 1 in 35.

That must be close to the maximum in the UK.

If the loco slipped, the only way the crew
could tell which way it was actually moving was to stretch out a hand and
feel the tunnel wall.

This accident report gives an indication of conditions in the Hotel Curve in
the 1930shttp://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_KingsCross1932.pdf

Thank you for sharing.

"E27002" wrote in message
...
On Jun 3, 11:42 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"E27002" wrote



The down tunnel was particularly interesting because the trains
literally came up Hotel Curve, into the platfrom, on the suburban side
of Kings Cross. It was a sight to behold. I remember feeling some
regret when the service ended.

The Hotel Curve must have been particularly horrible for loco crews in
steam
days. As well as the suburban passenger service there was a heavy
cross-London freight service. The Hotel Curve was on a 7 chain radius,
with
part of it climbing at 1 in 35.

That must be close to the maximum in the UK.

It was practically as steep up from Snow Hill to Ludgate Hill, though at
least there bankers were allowed - they weren't normally on the Hotel Curve.
The current route from City Thameslink to Blackfriars is even steeper, but
it's only used by emus.

Peter

In article
,
(E27002) wrote:

On Jun 4, 3:01*am, wrote:
In article
,

(E27002) wrote:
IIRC, and it was a LONG time ago: DMUs ran through to the Midland
Suburban area from Moorgate. *Loco hauled stock ran thru to the GN
suburbs. *At some point the GN trains changed over to DMU and then
ceased altogether, and the tunels up thru Kings Cross Closed.

The down tunnel was particularly interesting because the trains
literally came up Hotel Curve, into the platfrom, on the suburban
side of Kings Cross. It was a sight to behold. *I remember feeling
some regret when the service ended.

There were loco-hauled GN trains until the service ceased for the GN
electrification. They were the last non-corridor suburban stock too.

Thank you for that. It is so long ago that I had a hard time
remembering. I do recall seeing a train come up between the platform
faces on the Kings Cross suburban side. I suspect that the
arrangement was unique.

I never used that part of King's Cross before the GN electrification. I
only used whatever bits the Cambridge Buffet Expresses and other trains
used, and not very often as I mainly used Liverpool St in those days.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 22:13:18 +0100, Bruce
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 19:20:45 +0100, Neil Williams
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 07:49:33 +0100, Charles Ellson
wrote:
The wrong type of water ?



A rise in the water table caused by the decline of heavy industry on
Merseyside combined with wear caused by the 50x bogies on the steeply
curved track, for which they are not well designed.


It was mainly due to the closure of Walker's brewery, which used to
draw water from a 2' 6" diameter well that was located very close to
the running tunnel. It burst into the tunnel during construction and
flooded the workings, delaying the contract by many months.

Other businesses drew water from the ground but Walker's was by far
the largest user.


There is also the problem that the groundwater is becoming saline.

That was the wrong sort of water that I had in mind. AFAIR it does not
take a lot of salt to greatly increase any corrosive reactions
involving water.


The water has its advantages, though - it causes a natural cooling
effect, making the stations beautifully cool in summer, unlike on
London Underground.


They would not be so cool if the service was as frequent, or the
trains as long as on most Underground lines.

On 04/06/2010 09:56, Bruce wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 23:22:22 +0100, Neil
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 22:13:18 +0100,
wrote:
They would not be so cool if the service was as frequent, or the
trains as long as on most Underground lines.

To be fair, the Loop frequency is about every 5 minutes (4 New
Brighton, 4 West Kirby, 2 Chester, 2 Ellesmere Port) which isn't far
off parts of LU off peak. And 6 cars of 50x aren't far off the
length, though admittedly more trains are 3.


To be fair, I think those figures rather prove my point!

Tube lines seem to have a headway of 2 minutes

London Underground minutes...

2 min might be the peak, but it is often more than that.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK