Mizter T wrote:


There'll be various bits of info buried around the TfL site I'd think
(e.g. in the Board papers), but I haven't really delved into that side
of things much. In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it's a
very expensive project overall in terms of the total transport budget.
I doubt it'll never be self-sufficient, even taking into account the
Barclays sponsorship - but I'll stop spouting vagaries now and leave
it open to others to supply rather more concrete specifics!


Boris originally said it was to be provided at no cost to London, but
later backtracked on this, and at about £40-45m a year for the last two
years it's not hard to see this as a pretty expensive project overall.
Barclay's £25m over five years (IIRC) is for both Cycle Hire and Cycle
Superhighways so has to be seen as about 1/10th of the total £250m odd
cost of both schemes, if the 12 CS routes are ever completed. That's
pretty hefty, about half a Victoria Station rebuilding or a quarter of
an East London Line.

Basically, whatever the running costs, TfL's put in a lot up front,
mostly IIRC nicked from existing cycle scheme budgets (e.g. LCN+).

On the holistics point, I suspect the main abstraction will be from
buses, then taxis. In that sense it possibly increases the bus subsidy
per passenger, although a lot depends on the kind of user who'll take
it. I'm still not sure who it's aimed at, given that they're
specifically avoiding trying to provide for commuter flows from terminal
stations (they'd need a hell of a lot more bikes and vans to move them
about, since catering for commuter flows is highly capital intensive in
vehicles). It's more likely they're aiming it at short trip casual
users who may have business in a couple of areas of town on the same
day, and can take a bike between them instead of a cab or working out
which bus goes there or dropping down into the Tube for a short,
expensive Zone 1 trip.

I'm still in favour of a licensed pedicab scheme, personally. Could
even combine the two, and it has the benefit of being usable by post-pub
crowds - I'm so looking forward to the first drunk freewheeling through
London on a Boris bike (yes, it's banned, no, Boris doesn't think it's a
problem, at least for himself).

Even better, how about hire-pedicabs? Two up front pedalling, two in
the back? That would be *ace*.

Tom

On Jul 19, 6:10*pm, Paul Terry wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

What's not clear is whether or not a potential user will need £300 (or
£150 or whatever) in available funds in their account (via their
credit/debit card) to be able to rent a bike

I suspect they will. According to a rather old BBC article on the scheme
...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/h...id_8293000/829...

... "You'll use credit cards to place an automatic refundable deposit on
the bike".

In other words, pax won't be able to hire the bike (even for the free 30
minutes) unless they have enough credit to pay the deposit. Once the
bike is returned, the deposit is then refunded to the card by means of a
charge back.

Yes, I can't quite see how it'd work otherwise using card pre-
authorisation.


Those with limited funds might therefore be disappointed if hiring a
bike to go on a shopping trip

"But I know I've got enough in my account to buy this engagement
ring... it's a spontaneous thing, you see..."

That said, the scheme (and charging regime) is designed to steer
people towards returning bikes to docking stations after they've
finished their journey, rather than locking them up and keeping them
for themselves - I understand one of the bits of advice that London
(in the form of TfL) got from the Paris Velib scheme was not to
include an integral lock in the bike - the lock on the Paris bikes is
apparently a bit on the puny side, and fairly easily overcome, so
hirers who locked their bikes up were coming back to find them gone.
So the logic being employed in the London scheme is that it's better
from both a security and also a circulation and availability of hire
cycle standpoint that bikes are returned back to docking stations, not
locked up and idle for however long.

And given all that, our hero in search of the engagement ring will in
all likelihood have returned his bike to a docking station before
heading into Graff's or along Hatton Garden - his problem may then
come when he tries to hire a bike to race back to his hopeful
prospect, who may be cooling on him as the seconds pass.

That said, I realise the flaw in my proposition - the card pre-
authorisation would likely be levied at the same time as the 24-hour
or 7-day access fee was taken, so the reserved amount would then not
become available until that period had expired. In which case, our
groom might have got not further than the docking station outside the
palatial self-appointed two-star Pimlico hotel before having to resort
to slower means of moving, leaving our bride to be rather too much
time to ponder the passion-numbing subject of just how long it's been
since a Hoover has seen the carpet under the hotel bed...

On Mon, 19 Jul 2010, wrote:

All it needs is Constriction and Use regulations

Would these ban snaking movements?

tom

--
isn't it about time we had some new label for people interested in
technology who also have an interest in drinking binges, womanising and
occasional bouts of ultra violence? -- D

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:36:48 -0500, wrote:
Hmm. That's what's confusing me. The keys are mentioned as available
separately for a £3 charge. No link there to membership. I wonder whether
businesses will be able to take out memberships for casual use by their
staff, for example?

Membership sign up is now available. You have to be 18 to be a member
but you can sign up for up to 4 keys, at £3 each, so I don't see why a
business couldn't have a collection of keys.

Once you have signed up if you opt for the £1/day version as I did it
seems you are actually charged when you hire a cycle.

You can opt to auto-renew but I don't know why you would ever want to
do that. Even for the annual access charge you might as well only renew
it when you use it.

Free T-Shirt for the first 1000 to sign up. I'm sure it will be a fetching
Barclays blue and help you blend in with the Cycle Superhighways nicely.

On Jul 23, 9:22*am, David Walters wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:36:48 -0500, wrote:
Hmm. That's what's confusing me. The keys are mentioned as available
separately for a £3 charge. No link there to membership. I wonder whether
businesses will be able to take out memberships for casual use by their
staff, for example?

Membership sign up is now available. You have to be 18 to be a member
but you can sign up for up to 4 keys, at £3 each, so I don't see why a
business couldn't have a collection of keys.

Once you have signed up if you opt for the £1/day version as I did it
seems you are actually charged when you hire a cycle.

Yes, I just signed up for the £1 a day version too (and before I'd
read your post so I'm not just a copy-cat!) - I wasn't expecting to be
able to do that at all, but was instead under the seemingly erroneous
impression that "membership" (with key) equalled 'annual subscription'
- looking at the press release you cited earlier in this thread I see
however that I didn't read it properly:

---quote---
Anyone will be able to sign up for a daily, weekly or annual
membership from 23 July at tfl.gov.uk/barclayscyclehire
---quote---
Source:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/16314.aspx


You can opt to auto-renew but I don't know why you would ever want to
do that. Even for the annual access charge you might as well only renew
it when you use it.

What's unclear is how key-holding members will reactivate their key
with a new access period - e.g. say I've got a key and want 7-day
access, will I have to go on-line first and 'order' that, or will I be
able to turn up at a docking station and sort it out - though I'm not
sure the latter will be possible as IIRC there's no key 'hole' in the
pay stations, just in each of the cycle docks themselves. So if one
just turns up with a key that doesn't have an 'live' access period/
membership associated with it will one even be able to just take a
bike and get 24-hour access - or will the key be no good unless it's
re-activated online? (I suspect the latter.)


Free T-Shirt for the first 1000 to sign up. I'm sure it will be a fetching
Barclays blue and help you blend in with the Cycle Superhighways nicely.

Lovely.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 01:53:33 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 23, 9:22Â*am, David Walters wrote:
You can opt to auto-renew but I don't know why you would ever want to
do that. Even for the annual access charge you might as well only renew
it when you use it.

What's unclear is how key-holding members will reactivate their key
with a new access period - e.g. say I've got a key and want 7-day
access, will I have to go on-line first and 'order' that, or will I be
able to turn up at a docking station and sort it out - though I'm not
sure the latter will be possible as IIRC there's no key 'hole' in the
pay stations, just in each of the cycle docks themselves. So if one
just turns up with a key that doesn't have an 'live' access period/
membership associated with it will one even be able to just take a
bike and get 24-hour access - or will the key be no good unless it's
re-activated online? (I suspect the latter.)

There is a key reader in the pay stations which lets you do things like
check your hire history so you might be able to also pay for access there.

I've just read the T&Cs properly and it makes the auto-renew a bit
clearer.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/15869.aspx

"If you agreed to Auto Renewal, we will deduct the relevant Access Fee(s)
for you and each Additional User on the date that you present any of
your Key(s) at a Docking Point to undock a Cycle following expiry of
the previous Access Period."

So if you opt for auto renew at the daily rate and use bikes in 4 24
hour periods over 7 days you will be charged £4 and not £7.

Or at least I think that is what happens....

On Jul 23, 10:19*am, David Walters wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 01:53:33 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 23, 9:22*am, David Walters wrote:
You can opt to auto-renew but I don't know why you would ever want to
do that. Even for the annual access charge you might as well only renew
it when you use it.

What's unclear is how key-holding members will reactivate their key
with a new access period - e.g. say I've got a key and want 7-day
access, will I have to go on-line first and 'order' that, or will I be
able to turn up at a docking station and sort it out - though I'm not
sure the latter will be possible as IIRC there's no key 'hole' in the
pay stations, just in each of the cycle docks themselves. So if one
just turns up with a key that doesn't have an 'live' access period/
membership associated with it will one even be able to just take a
bike and get 24-hour access - or will the key be no good unless it's
re-activated online? (I suspect the latter.)

There is a key reader in the pay stations which lets you do things like
check your hire history so you might be able to also pay for access there..

Oh ok, that escaped my notice when I've taken a look at them.


I've just read the T&Cs properly and it makes the auto-renew a bit
clearer.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/15869.aspx

"If you agreed to Auto Renewal, we will deduct the relevant Access Fee(s)
for you and each Additional User on the date that you present any of
your Key(s) at a Docking Point to undock a Cycle following expiry of
the previous Access Period."

So if you opt for auto renew at the daily rate and use bikes in 4 24
hour periods over 7 days you will be charged £4 and not £7.

Or at least I think that is what happens....

That seems to make sense - in fact it seems quite sensible (and good
investigating!) - this means occasional users could have Auto Renewal
set-up for 24-hour access and whenever key is used it'd start a new 24-
hour period (unless one was already live).

One question I have is, if a user were to have 7-day access on Auto
Renew, how easy would it be for them to downgrade it to 24-hour access
if they just wanted to use the system for a day (rather than a week) -
would they be able to do this at a pay station, or would they have to
do it online? I'm not too sure whether offering 7-day access on Auto
Renewal might cause more confusion than the benefit it'd offer to the
perhaps relatively low number of people who might find it useful -
that said, perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that.

On Jul 23, 10:19*am, David Walters wrote:
[snip]
I've just read the T&Cs properly and it makes the auto-renew a bit
clearer.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/15869.aspx

Just read through them myself - in addition to my comments about the
Auto Renewal facility in my other reply, here's a few other bits and
pieces I noted in the T&Cs (about things other than Auto Renewal)...

---quote---
7.5 - A 5 minute time interval is required between the end of one
journey and the commencement of another journey. If you (or an
Additional User) attempt to undock a Cycle from a Docking Point within
the 5 minute time interval, this will be treated as a continuation of
the previous journey and the Period of Use and Usage Charge shall be
calculated accordingly.
---/quote---

So, you won't be able to stay within the free half-hour's usage simply
by swapping bikes at docking stations before the 30 minutes is up -
you'll have to wait for five minutes to be up, and by the sounds of it
you won't be able to get around this by just walking up the road and
use the next docking station along as that possibility appears to be
covered by the above term too - so, cheapskates beware!


---quote---
8.3 - If you are unable to dock a Cycle at the Docking Station of your
choice due to the lack of an available Docking Point, you should
present your Payment Card (if you are a Casual User) or Key (if you
are a Member) at the Terminal at the affected Docking Station and dock
the Cycle at an alternative Docking Stations. The Terminal will state
the period of time that you are allowed free of charge to enable you
(and each Additional User) to dock the Cycle at a Docking Point at an
alternative Docking Station.
---/quote---

I had heard there would be some system whereby you wouldn't be
penalised if a docking station was full, but wasn't sure how it'd work
- the above term explains it.


---quote---
9.3 b (i) - must not: lock or secure the Cycle to any object or
property during the Period of Use;
---/quote---

I knew that was to be discouraged but hadn't realised it would
actually be prohibited. But that's fair enough in the context of the
whole system - if you want to lock a bike up and leave it, you take it
back to a docking station and dock it (and hope that one's available
when you come back!).


---quote---
9.3 b (vii) - must not: use the Cycle for racing or stunt or trick-
riding;
---/quote---

Nonetheless, expect YouTube videos soon enough! (See Paris and Velib.)


---quote---
11.8 - You may obtain a receipt for each of your (or an Additional
User's) journey records from the Terminal.
---/quote---

Which solves the expenses issue.

On Jul 23, 10:19 am, David Walters wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 01:53:33 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 23, 9:22 am, David Walters wrote:
You can opt to auto-renew but I don't know why you would ever want to
do that. Even for the annual access charge you might as well only renew
it when you use it.

What's unclear is how key-holding members will reactivate their key
with a new access period - e.g. say I've got a key and want 7-day
access, will I have to go on-line first and 'order' that, or will I be
able to turn up at a docking station and sort it out - though I'm not
sure the latter will be possible as IIRC there's no key 'hole' in the
pay stations, just in each of thecycledocks themselves. So if one
just turns up with a key that doesn't have an 'live' access period/
membership associated with it will one even be able to just take a
bike and get 24-hour access - or will the key be no good unless it's
re-activated online? (I suspect the latter.)

There is a key reader in the pay stations which lets you do things like
check your hire history so you might be able to also pay for access
there.

When I was around town yesterday (on my bike no less) I noticed that a few
of the pay stations are already turned on and active - an example being the
one on Bernard Street opposite Russell Square tube station. The simple
touch-screen user interface seemed familiar - the screens look a bit like
those on a ticket machine, maybe it's just the New Johnston font. IIRC there
were six initial options, including balance, print receipt, and usage
history - or wording along those lines.

I also note that there's a usage history available online for those with web
accounts (which is presumably everyone with a membership and a key).

On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:14:49 +0100, Mizter T wrote:
When I was around town yesterday (on my bike no less) I noticed that a few
of the pay stations are already turned on and active - an example being the
one on Bernard Street opposite Russell Square tube station.

About 2 weeks ago I found one on Union Street in Southwark that thought
it had bikes for hire, according to it's neighbours, and was happy to
take my credit card as a casual user. I'm afraid I chickened out of
the transaction as I wasn't sure how I would be able to return the
non-existent bike.