On Jun 26, 9:17*pm, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 10:21:39 -0700 (PDT), E27002
wrote:

On Jun 26, 10:08*am, RPM wrote:
.
Chiltern services can only use the fast lines and unlike the fast Met
services they do not stop at Moor Park.

Is that a recent change? *ISTR that in earlier days, North of Harrow,
BR trains, for the most part, stopped at the same stations as
Metropolitan Line fasts.

Which "earlier days" ? Before the 1960s there was only one pair of
tracks from Harrow to Moor Park and BR trains did not stop at
intermediate stations.

The late 1960s thru the 1970s is the period to which I refer. That is
the period immediately following the closure of the GCML.

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 04:53:55 -0700 (PDT), Chafford
wrote:

On 27 June, 11:58, "David Thornhill" wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote in message

...


On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 10:21:39 -0700 (PDT), E27002
wrote:

On Jun 26, 10:08 am, RPM wrote:
.
Chiltern services can only use the fast lines and unlike the fast Met
services they do not stop at Moor Park.

Is that a recent change? *ISTR that in earlier days, North of Harrow,
BR trains, for the most part, stopped at the same stations as
Metropolitan Line fasts.

Which "earlier days" ? Before the 1960s there was only one pair of
tracks from Harrow to Moor Park and BR trains did not stop at
intermediate stations.

Oh yes they did, as other posted has suggested, e.g.

http://www.ephotozine.com/photo/1411606

David

And the stopping services caused delays to late running GC Expresses
in the 50s and earlier.

Well, you learn something every day. Were they still doing local
services immediately before the four-tracking was completed ?

In the early 70s

As far as I can remember the BR trains stopped at Moor Park Rickmansworth
and Chorley Wood only during off peak times.
They never stopped at Northwood, Pinner etc as they were on the slow lines
and BR did not use those. I think the section was quadrupled around 1961,
co-inciding with the introduction of the A stock, electrification
Rickmansworth - Amersham and withdrawl of the dreadnought stock and most of
the locos.


During the peak they were none stop from Harrow to Chalfont and Latimer.


And on Sunday BR ran an hourly shuttle from Amersham to Aylesbury and if
you were going to London you had to change and go to Baker Street.

"Paul Rigg" wrote in message
...
In the early 70s

As far as I can remember the BR trains stopped at Moor Park Rickmansworth
and Chorley Wood only during off peak times.
They never stopped at Northwood, Pinner etc as they were on the slow lines
and BR did not use those. I think the section was quadrupled around 1961,
co-inciding with the introduction of the A stock, electrification
Rickmansworth - Amersham and withdrawl of the dreadnought stock and most
of the locos.


During the peak they were none stop from Harrow to Chalfont and Latimer.


And on Sunday BR ran an hourly shuttle from Amersham to Aylesbury and if
you were going to London you had to change and go to Baker Street.

I've been checking the archive. Initially on introduction of the A stock,
quadrupling Harrow to Watford South Junction, electrification Rickmansworth
to Amersham and Chesham, and dieselisation of the BR Marylebone - Amersham -
Aylesbury service, the off-peak pattern to Amersham - Aylesbury was:
BR hourly, Marylebone - Aylesbury, calling Harrow, Chalfont and all stations
LT half-hourly Baker Street - Amersham, calling Finchley Road, Harrow, Moor
Park and all stations.
Chalfont - Chesham half-hourly shuttle.
In the peaks the pattern was:
BR every 15 minutes, Marylebone - Aylesbury, calling Harrow, Chalfont and
all stations
LT every 15 minutes Liverpool Street - mersham, calling all stations to
Finchley Road, fast to Moor Park, then all stations. A couple of trains ran
through to Chesham instead of Amersham
Chalfont - Chesham shuttle half hourly, in addition to the through trains.
Metropolitan Main Line trains ran from Baker Street off-peak, and it was
only Watford and Uxbridge trains which ran from Aldgate.

After a few years the off-peak Baker Street to Amersham service was reduced
to hourly. When this happened, the off-peak BR trains began to call at Moor
Park and Rickmansworth.

Note that peak LT Amersham trains did not call at Harrow; there were also
peak Watford trains which were fast Finchley Road to North Harrow, and
Uxbridge trains which were fast from Finchley Road to Rayners Lane (in
addition to the trains which called at all Met stations.

Peter

On Jun 28, 10:05*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Paul Rigg" wrote in message

...



In the early 70s

As far as I can remember the BR trains stopped at Moor Park *Rickmansworth
and Chorley Wood only during off peak times.
They never stopped at Northwood, Pinner etc as they were on the slow lines
and BR did not use those. *I think the section was quadrupled around 1961,
co-inciding with the introduction of the A stock, electrification
Rickmansworth - Amersham and withdrawl of the dreadnought stock and most
of the locos.

During the peak *they were none stop from Harrow to Chalfont and Latimer.

And on Sunday BR ran an hourly *shuttle from Amersham to Aylesbury and if
you were going to London you had to change and go to Baker Street.

I've been checking the archive. Initially on introduction of the A stock,
quadrupling Harrow to Watford South Junction, electrification Rickmansworth
to Amersham and Chesham, and dieselisation of the BR Marylebone - Amersham -
Aylesbury service, the off-peak pattern to Amersham - Aylesbury was:
BR hourly, Marylebone - Aylesbury, calling Harrow, Chalfont and all stations
LT half-hourly Baker Street - Amersham, calling Finchley Road, Harrow, Moor
Park and all stations.
Chalfont - Chesham half-hourly shuttle.
In the peaks the pattern was:
BR every 15 minutes, Marylebone - Aylesbury, calling Harrow, Chalfont and
all stations
LT every 15 minutes Liverpool Street - mersham, calling all stations to
Finchley Road, fast to Moor Park, then all stations. A couple of trains ran
through to Chesham instead of Amersham
Chalfont - Chesham shuttle half hourly, in addition to the through trains..
Metropolitan Main Line trains ran from Baker Street off-peak, and it was
only Watford and Uxbridge trains which ran from Aldgate.

After a few years the off-peak Baker Street to Amersham service was reduced
to hourly. When this happened, the off-peak BR trains began to call at Moor
Park and Rickmansworth.

Note that peak LT Amersham trains did not call at Harrow; there were also
peak Watford trains which were fast Finchley Road to North Harrow, and
Uxbridge trains which were fast from Finchley Road to Rayners Lane (in
addition to the trains which called at all Met stations.

Thank you Peter, that summarises the service very well. I used to use
the trains between Aylesbury and Marylebone very often. It is strange
how the details fade over the years.

On 28 June, 18:16, 1506 wrote:
On Jun 28, 10:05*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:



"Paul Rigg" wrote in message

...

In the early 70s

As far as I can remember the BR trains stopped at Moor Park *Rickmansworth
and Chorley Wood only during off peak times.
They never stopped at Northwood, Pinner etc as they were on the slow lines
and BR did not use those. *I think the section was quadrupled around 1961,
co-inciding with the introduction of the A stock, electrification
Rickmansworth - Amersham and withdrawl of the dreadnought stock and most
of the locos.

During the peak *they were none stop from Harrow to Chalfont and Latimer.

And on Sunday BR ran an hourly *shuttle from Amersham to Aylesbury and if
you were going to London you had to change and go to Baker Street.

I've been checking the archive. Initially on introduction of the A stock,
quadrupling Harrow to Watford South Junction, electrification Rickmansworth
to Amersham and Chesham, and dieselisation of the BR Marylebone - Amersham -
Aylesbury service, the off-peak pattern to Amersham - Aylesbury was:
BR hourly, Marylebone - Aylesbury, calling Harrow, Chalfont and all stations
LT half-hourly Baker Street - Amersham, calling Finchley Road, Harrow, Moor
Park and all stations.
Chalfont - Chesham half-hourly shuttle.
In the peaks the pattern was:
BR every 15 minutes, Marylebone - Aylesbury, calling Harrow, Chalfont and
all stations
LT every 15 minutes Liverpool Street - mersham, calling all stations to
Finchley Road, fast to Moor Park, then all stations. A couple of trains ran
through to Chesham instead of Amersham
Chalfont - Chesham shuttle half hourly, in addition to the through trains.
Metropolitan Main Line trains ran from Baker Street off-peak, and it was
only Watford and Uxbridge trains which ran from Aldgate.

After a few years the off-peak Baker Street to Amersham service was reduced
to hourly. When this happened, the off-peak BR trains began to call at Moor
Park and Rickmansworth.

Note that peak LT Amersham trains did not call at Harrow; there were also
peak Watford trains which were fast Finchley Road to North Harrow, and
Uxbridge trains which were fast from Finchley Road to Rayners Lane (in
addition to the trains which called at all Met stations.

Thank you Peter, that summarises the service very well. *I used to use
the trains between Aylesbury and Marylebone very often. *It is strange
how the details fade over the years.

It's not currently possible to get from the Chiltern Lines to the
stations between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park, incidentally.

If they ever did stop at those, was there a different track
arrangement, or were there more platforms?

On Jun 28, 10:07*pm, MIG wrote:
On 28 June, 18:16, 1506 wrote:





On Jun 28, 10:05*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Paul Rigg" wrote in message

...

In the early 70s

As far as I can remember the BR trains stopped at Moor Park *Rickmansworth
and Chorley Wood only during off peak times.
They never stopped at Northwood, Pinner etc as they were on the slow lines
and BR did not use those. *I think the section was quadrupled around 1961,
co-inciding with the introduction of the A stock, electrification
Rickmansworth - Amersham and withdrawl of the dreadnought stock and most
of the locos.

During the peak *they were none stop from Harrow to Chalfont and Latimer.

And on Sunday BR ran an hourly *shuttle from Amersham to Aylesbury and if
you were going to London you had to change and go to Baker Street.

I've been checking the archive. Initially on introduction of the A stock,
quadrupling Harrow to Watford South Junction, electrification Rickmansworth
to Amersham and Chesham, and dieselisation of the BR Marylebone - Amersham -
Aylesbury service, the off-peak pattern to Amersham - Aylesbury was:
BR hourly, Marylebone - Aylesbury, calling Harrow, Chalfont and all stations
LT half-hourly Baker Street - Amersham, calling Finchley Road, Harrow, Moor
Park and all stations.
Chalfont - Chesham half-hourly shuttle.
In the peaks the pattern was:
BR every 15 minutes, Marylebone - Aylesbury, calling Harrow, Chalfont and
all stations
LT every 15 minutes Liverpool Street - mersham, calling all stations to
Finchley Road, fast to Moor Park, then all stations. A couple of trains ran
through to Chesham instead of Amersham
Chalfont - Chesham shuttle half hourly, in addition to the through trains.
Metropolitan Main Line trains ran from Baker Street off-peak, and it was
only Watford and Uxbridge trains which ran from Aldgate.

After a few years the off-peak Baker Street to Amersham service was reduced
to hourly. When this happened, the off-peak BR trains began to call at Moor
Park and Rickmansworth.

Note that peak LT Amersham trains did not call at Harrow; there were also
peak Watford trains which were fast Finchley Road to North Harrow, and
Uxbridge trains which were fast from Finchley Road to Rayners Lane (in
addition to the trains which called at all Met stations.

Thank you Peter, that summarises the service very well. *I used to use
the trains between Aylesbury and Marylebone very often. *It is strange
how the details fade over the years.

It's not currently possible to get from the Chiltern Lines to the
stations between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park, incidentally.

If they ever did stop at those, was there a different track
arrangement, or were there more platforms?

Yes, as mentioned in the text you've quoted, the line used to only be
double track north of Harrow. Before quadrupling (to Northwood Hills
in 1961 and to north of Moor Park in 1962), there was no problem in
stopping the BR trains at intermediate stations between Harrow-on-the-
Hill and Moor Park as there were only two tracks. The BR trains could
no longer call after the quadrupling as platforms were only provided
on the local lines, not on the main lines.

"MIG" wrote

It's not currently possible to get from the Chiltern Lines to the
stations between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park, incidentally.

If they ever did stop at those, was there a different track
arrangement, or were there more platforms?

Before 1960 it was only double track between Harrow and Watford South
Junction, so all trains (BR and LT) passed platforms at intermediate
stations. It is possible for a train from Amersham to cross to the slow
lines at Watford South Junction (and some LUL trains do so), though Chiltern
trains are not authorised to use the slow lines. So a passenger travelling
from north of Amersham to a station between Moor Park and Harrow has to
change twice, or double back from Harrow.

Peter

On Jun 26, 6:07*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jun 26, 10:19*pm, Mizter T wrote:



On Jun 26, 7:20*pm, Andy wrote:

On Jun 26, 6:21*pm, E27002 wrote:

On Jun 26, 10:08*am, RPM wrote:
. Chiltern services can only use the fast lines and unlike the fast Met
services they do not stop at Moor Park.

Is that a recent change? *ISTR that in earlier days, North of Harrow,
BR trains, for the most part, stopped at the same stations as
Metropolitan Line fasts.

Chiltern ceased calling at Moor Park around the time of privatisation,
in the mid 1990s. What I can't remember if it was before Chiltern were
privatised or a bit afterwards.

What was the logic behind that change? Obviously nowadays it makes
sense, as Chiltern are focussed on the longer distance passengers, but
back then the Chiltern line had rather less patronage. (Maybe it was
something to do with fares revenue allocation?)

I don't know the reason, but it may have been due to overcrowding of
the Chiltern services. I'm not sure how revenue is allocated between
LU and Chiltern, but it might also have been a consideration. The lack
of Chiltern trains does leave an annoying gap in the service heading
north.

ISTR reading once that it has to do with the OPO equipment on the fast
line platforms, and that said OPO equipment is not suitable for use
under Network Rail/ATOC driver regulations. As a result, Chiltern
trains don't stop and haven't since the 1990s, as mentioned.

On Jul 2, 2:42*am, TheOneKEA wrote:

On Jun 26, 6:07*pm, Andy wrote:

On Jun 26, 10:19*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 26, 7:20*pm, Andy wrote:
[snip]
Chiltern ceased calling at Moor Park around the time of privatisation,
in the mid 1990s. What I can't remember if it was before Chiltern were
privatised or a bit afterwards.

What was the logic behind that change? Obviously nowadays it makes
sense, as Chiltern are focussed on the longer distance passengers, but
back then the Chiltern line had rather less patronage. (Maybe it was
something to do with fares revenue allocation?)

I don't know the reason, but it may have been due to overcrowding of
the Chiltern services. I'm not sure how revenue is allocated between
LU and Chiltern, but it might also have been a consideration. The lack
of Chiltern trains does leave an annoying gap in the service heading
north.

ISTR reading once that it has to do with the OPO equipment on the fast
line platforms, and that said OPO equipment is not suitable for use
under Network Rail/ATOC driver regulations. As a result, Chiltern
trains don't stop and haven't since the 1990s, as mentioned.

Not sure if that makes a lot of sense - AIUI Chiltern trains on the
Met line operate under the LU rule book, rather than by any 'National
Rail' rules.