On Jul 21, 12:16*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:41 am, Roy Badami wrote:

On 20/07/10 14:58, Paul Scott wrote:
If coming the other way, you'll be in the
paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey
when (if) you eventually touch out.

This bit I'm confused by. *I didn't think you ever should touch out on a
tram - I thought they're treated like buses? *Interchanging from tram to
tube at Wimbledon doesn't change that rule, does it?

I think all Paul is referring to is touching out on the pad on the
automatic gate - you need to do this to get out of the station (and
this is why Wimbledon is a 'special case' for Tramlink, i.e. the tram
stop is within a gated paid-for area.)

I was trying to get across the general case that if you got off the tram and
did nothing at Wimbledon, when you touched out at 'some other station' you'd
have been travelling without a tube/rail touch in, and the gates would
charge a max cash fare on the grounds the journey was unstarted. You'd also
be subject to a PF if checked en route.

Yes, that's all correct.


This would also be true for a touch out on the barrier line at Wimbledon if
you hadn't used the special validator when getting off the tram, as I
understand it from previous discussions...

No, that's not correct. So long as one has correctly touched-in at a
tram stop before travelling to Wimbledon, then if the journey is
finishing at Wimbledon (and the passenger is thus exiting the station)
there's no requirement to touch on anything again on the tram platform
after alighting from the tram. The Oyster readers on the gates at
Wimbledon will correctly identify that you're an exiting tram
passenger who's paid their fare and will let you through (and if the
gates are locked open then you wouldn't even need to touch-out on the
gate's Oyster reader, though of course you can still do so).

However if you're *entering* Wimbledon station then after passing
through the gates you *are* requirement to touch on the Oyster reader
on the tram platform - failure to do so will result in the system
assuming one was to make a Tube/NR journey, and hence charging the max
fare because one didn't touch-out at a Tube/NR station having
completed a Tube/NR journey.

(Incidentally, if a tram passenger did alight at Wimbledon then touch
on one of the Oyster readers on the tram platform, then it's quite
possible there'd be no ill-effect - Tramlink allows one 'free
transfer' using Oyster from tram to tram, as any Tramlink destination
can be reached by using just two trams - this is implemented by
allowing a second 'free' touch-in at a tram stop within IIRC 70
minutes of the first touch-in. Therefore by my reading of things if a
passenger arriving at Wimbledon mistakenly touches on one of the tram
platform validators they wouldn't be charged for another tram journey
unless they've already used up their 'free transfer' - the same
applies for anyone getting off a tram anywhere else on the system and
erroneously thinking they need to touch-out.)

On Jul 21, 3:54*pm, wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 07:48:57 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote:
That's simply nonsense and completely wrong - if you don't have a
validated Oyster card then you are travelling without a ticket and are
liable to a PF or prosecution. This is what all the posters and signs
say, for example these ones on the interior of doors on Tube trains:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mixthem...te/4019285039/

I'd love to see them try that on in court. A valid ticket is a valid ticket
whether its been touched in or not whatever their conditions say. Those
conditions are not a legal document. Unless *they can PROVE that they would
have lost money by the ticket not being touched in I don't see a court in
the country upholding a prosecution.

You really think that? All the TfL blurb - including all the small
print (i.e. the conditions of carriage - which *is* a legal document)
- makes clear that an Oyster card is only a valid ticket if it's been
validated (at least when being used for PAYG) - an un-validated Oyster
card is therefore not a valid ticket.

I'm pretty sure there'll have been successful prosecutions to this
effect already. But feel free to attempt to put yourself in this
position so you can try your flawed argument out...!

In message , d
writes

I'd love to see them try that on in court.

They already have:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...-cost-10000.do

The case goes to appeal next month.
--
Paul Terry

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On Jul 21, 12:16 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

This would also be true for a touch out on the barrier line at Wimbledon
if
you hadn't used the special validator when getting off the tram, as I
understand it from previous discussions...

No, that's not correct. So long as one has correctly touched-in at a
tram stop before travelling to Wimbledon, then if the journey is
finishing at Wimbledon (and the passenger is thus exiting the station)
there's no requirement to touch on anything again on the tram platform
after alighting from the tram. The Oyster readers on the gates at
Wimbledon will correctly identify that you're an exiting tram
passenger who's paid their fare and will let you through (and if the
gates are locked open then you wouldn't even need to touch-out on the
gate's Oyster reader, though of course you can still do so).

Thanks for the correction - I'm sure that's been the previous explanation,
but we live and learn...

Paul S

On 21 July, 15:29, David Walters wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:48:11 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
You can't get a penalty fare if you have a valid oyster card that has
enough money to pay a max fare on it. Unless an oyster is now only valid
if its touched in

If you don't have a seasion ticket that is the case. From the Conditions
of Carriage:

"If you do not touch in at the start and touch out at the end of your
journey, you may be charged more than the advertised Oyster single fare
and this journey will not be included in any daily price capping. You
may also be liable to a Penalty fare or you may be prosecuted. *"

David

Where does a "journey" start? Less of an issue now with PAYG on NR,
but in the past it came up with people travelling on Oyster seasons
from, say, Slade green and changing to the DLR at Greenwich, with an
zone 1 - 6 season on Oyster, and all that silliness about having to
touch in on the DLR even with a season, "at the start of your journey".

On Jul 21, 4:49*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:16 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
This would also be true for a touch out on the barrier line at
Wimbledon if you hadn't used the special validator when getting
off the tram, as I understand it from previous discussions...

No, that's not correct. So long as one has correctly touched-in at a
tram stop before travelling to Wimbledon, then if the journey is
finishing at Wimbledon (and the passenger is thus exiting the station)
there's no requirement to touch on anything again on the tram platform
after alighting from the tram. The Oyster readers on the gates at
Wimbledon will correctly identify that you're an exiting tram
passenger who's paid their fare and will let you through (and if the
gates are locked open then you wouldn't even need to touch-out on the
gate's Oyster reader, though of course you can still do so).

Thanks for the correction - I'm sure that's been the previous explanation,
but we live and learn...

No probs, and if that was my previous explanation, then apologies for
it being unclear or misleading! I'm pretty much 100% certain this is
how it's been since the coming of Oyster.

Incidentally I recall being rather unimpressed at the information
provided at Wimbledon when Oyster first arrived, though eventually
posters were displayed which were sort-of helpful. I'm not sure of
what the situation is like there now (post PAYG on NR), haven't been
there for a while, but I did stop by at Elmers End a couple of months
or so ago (was actually driving past) to have a look at what
information and advice was displayed for Oyster users - and I was
disappointed to find that there was nothing at all. (Elmers End isn't
gated, by the way.)

In message
,
Mizter T writes

Incidentally I recall being rather unimpressed at the information
provided at Wimbledon when Oyster first arrived, though eventually
posters were displayed which were sort-of helpful. I'm not sure of
what the situation is like there now

Last time I was there, the need to touch out at the ticket gates was
clearly signed, but a further degree of confusion was added by a notice
not to use the yellow reader adjacent to the manual gate when leaving
the station!

--
Paul Terry

On Jul 21, 5:48 pm, Paul Terry wrote:

In message
,
Mizter T writes

Incidentally I recall being rather unimpressed at the information
provided at Wimbledon when Oyster first arrived, though eventually
posters were displayed which were sort-of helpful. I'm not sure of
what the situation is like there now

Last time I was there, the need to touch out at the ticket gates was
clearly signed, but a further degree of confusion was added by a notice
not to use the yellow reader adjacent to the manual gate when leaving
the station!

OK, well I can say things have changed since you were there - sometime last
year I think the manual side gates were replaced with the "WAGs", that is
the wide-aisle gates (as opposed to ticket checks being done by Coleen
Rooney, Abigail Clancy et al [1]).

I assume that the standalone reader next to the manual gate caused some sort
of issue here because it was directionally ambiguous - i.e. it couldn't tell
whether a passenger was entering or leaving the system. Touching an Oyster
on a gate meanwhile isn't ambiguous at all - it's a definitive indicator of
either an entry or an exit.

So that's one issue less to contend with at least!

-----
[1] I did need to google for this, BTW!

I should never have mentioned the Wimbledon tram issue! The point was
really about the pink validators...

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 08:11:45 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

[...] So long as one has correctly touched-in at a
tram stop before travelling to Wimbledon, then if the journey is
finishing at Wimbledon (and the passenger is thus exiting the station)
there's no requirement to touch on anything again on the tram platform
after alighting from the tram. [...]

I wouldn't touch again on the platform, as I said I paid again once
that way: fair enough, you could argue that the free transfer wouldn't
apply at terminals.

Thanks for the explanations, everyone, and sorry to go on about it.
Wimbledon is clearly an extra large can of worms. The signage there
is *completely* insufficient if all we read above is true (no reason
to think not) and there should be announcements on the tram as well -
there are about every other bloody thing.

I am a great supporter of Oyster (except Network Railcard) but at
this one station, and maybe a few others, could things not be
improved?

My earlier post now seems off-topic as we were supposed to be talking
about route validators. I didn't know there was one there, clearly my
mistake. But then, the current "Getting Around with Oyster" (May
2010) doesn't refer to what to do at Wimbedon when leaving the network
somewhere else:

"I get the tram to/from Wimbledon station.
What should I do?

If you travel by tram to Wimbledon, always
touch in at the start of your journey and touch
out at the station gates when leaving the
station. Do not use the yellow card reader on
the manual gate when you exit. When travelling
by tram from Wimbledon, always touch in at the
station gates and again at the yellow card reader
on the tram platform before boarding."

The route validators in the Wimbledon tram case are not always
fulfiling their usual purpose of indicating a [cheaper] route taken.
They are, as I think Mizter T pointed out weeks ago, also able to
record an "in" and thus avoid a penalty.

I can now see that I have over-paid on a recent journey via Wimbledon
where I didn't validate there.

[Previous balance £20.10]
22:21 Carshalton [National Rail] Entry - £4.30 £15.80
22:32 Mitcham Junction Tramstop Entry £0.00 £15.80
^^ Why not a tram fare? Earlier cap?
23:06 Surbiton [National Rail] Exit - £4.30 £11.50
Total: £8.60.

Total for the day £13.70 instead of a £5.10 Zone 2-6 cap.

Interesting that on the unlisted outward journey, the Wimbledon tram
validator recorded an exit rather than a bus-like entry. Anyway,
setting this all out like this has helped me understand exactly what
happened, so I might as well click "send" and share the pain.

Thanks,

Richard.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...r_may_2010.pdf