wrote on 07 August 2010 23:16:48 ...
In articlewQj7o.58103$X%4.19734@hurricane, (Roy
Badami) wrote:

On 07/08/10 21:57, Mizter T wrote:

Sure - if we're going by postal counties, then the list on the ABC
website is a nonsense I think - all London postcodes (NW, N, E, W, SW,
SW, WC, EC) are in the post town of "London", and I don't think the
post town of London belongs to any postal county, let alone multiple
postal counties (so "NW4 xxx, Middlesex" for an address in Hendon was
never strictly speaking a correct address).

Yes, the site does actually say: "County names have never been a
part of recommended postal addresses within the "LONDON" postal
area. In fact, the "LONDON" postal area presents something of a
challenge to those who seek to use County names within it."

http://abcounties.co.uk/bpa/bpasection2.htm

To amplify my earlier comment on why their London data is utter oblox, the
use of counties in London is obsolete but they overlook completely that
each London postal district also has a name.

There is a name associated with each one* that explains its place in the
numerical order (because the numbers are based on alphabetical order of
the associated names), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that each
postcode *has* a name.

It would cause confusion for an address in Leadenhal Street EC3 to give
also the associated name for EC3 which is Fenchurch Street. Is the E16
area still known as Victoria Docks, which is its associated name?

* Except the "1" Head Districts (W1, SE1 etc.) also W2, SW11.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

wrote on 07 August 2010 22:50:20 ...
In articleFAj7o.78929$RO5.57792@hurricane, (Roy
Badami) wrote:

On 07/08/10 20:35, Peter Smyth wrote:

It is the post towns with (N) after them in this list

http://abcounties.co.uk/bpa/bpasection3.htm

Generally seems to be towns with the same name as the county, plus
other towns deemed large and famous enough to not need a county.

Thanks - that's exactly what I was looking for!

Except that it's total oblox in the London postal districts. I was brought
up in Putney and no-one but no-one has referred to that as being in Surrey
for over 150 years.

Nevertheless the list is correct in that (a) Surrey is the traditional
county name for Putney, (b) you don't need to put it in the address in
addition to "London", and (c) Royal Mail won't mind if you do include
it, though it sounds as if that's about to change.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On Aug 7, 11:16*pm, wrote:

In article 5xk7o.72047$gM.61947@hurricane, (Roy
Badami) wrote:

On 07/08/10 22:37, Mizter T wrote:

I recently came across an e-commerce site that required one to select
a county from a drop down list, a list which resolutely contained no
reference to London, and wondered whether the proprietor had designed
it as such deliberately...

Living in Cambridge I'm always irritated by sites that require a
county, since no one writes "Cambridge, Cambs." - but at least
Cambridgeshire is normally offered as an option!

If I get a site insisting on a County I tend to put "X". I've not been
refused yet.

Bit hard when it's not in the drop-down list though.

On Aug 7, 11:16*pm, wrote:

In article wQj7o.58103$X%4.19734@hurricane, (Roy
Badami) wrote:

On 07/08/10 21:57, Mizter T wrote:

Sure - if we're going by postal counties, then the list on the ABC
website is a nonsense I think - all London postcodes (NW, N, E, W, SW,
SW, WC, EC) are in the post town of "London", and I don't think the
post town of London belongs to any postal county, let alone multiple
postal counties (so "NW4 xxx, Middlesex" for an address in Hendon was
never strictly speaking a correct address).

Yes, the site does actually say: "County names have never been a
part of recommended postal addresses within the "LONDON" postal
area. In fact, the "LONDON" postal area presents something of a
challenge to those who seek to use County names within it."

http://abcounties.co.uk/bpa/bpasection2.htm

To amplify my earlier comment on why their London data is utter oblox, the
use of counties in London is obsolete but they overlook completely that
each London postal district also has a name. They give SW19 as an example
and suggest:

Highbury Road
LONDON
Surrey
SW19 7PR

That example should of course be:

Highbury Road
Wimbledon
LONDON
SW19 7PR

if what is wanted is a more localised address than just "London SW19".


Sorry but I quite strongly disagree with that - I don't think there
has ever been a widespread convention let alone a requirement whereby
the precise London postal district name features in an address.

There are far too many examples in London where the name of the postal
district doesn't properly represent the commonly understood names of
the districts / neighbourhoods / areas it encompasses - in other words
the postal district name isn't coterminous with all the places it
covers are actually known as (though it may reach the levels of being
a broad approximation thereof - and in ambiguous cases people might
fall back on the postcode divide in order to say place a road or an
address in neighbourhood a or neighbourhood b when really it's on the
edge of both).

Don't get me wrong, I do like using a district name for addresses in
London no doubt - it helps to provide for a sense of place - but
merely relying on the postal district name might result in a misplaced
sense of place! Thus I tend to regard postal district names as a guide
rather than an authoritative word.

(Of course, place names can change and shift over time - in a process
that I think is perhaps somewhat more complex than merely reflecting
the latest whims of estate agents and of gentrification - but that is
I suggest a whole other discussion!)

On Aug 7, 11:51*pm, "Richard J." wrote:

wrote on 07 August 2010 23:16:48 ...

In articlewQj7o.58103$X%4.19734@hurricane, (Roy
Badami) wrote:

On 07/08/10 21:57, Mizter T wrote:

Sure - if we're going by postal counties, then the list on the ABC
website is a nonsense I think - all London postcodes (NW, N, E, W, SW,
SW, WC, EC) are in the post town of "London", and I don't think the
post town of London belongs to any postal county, let alone multiple
postal counties (so "NW4 xxx, Middlesex" for an address in Hendon was
never strictly speaking a correct address).

Yes, the site does actually say: "County names have never been a
part of recommended postal addresses within the "LONDON" postal
area. In fact, the "LONDON" postal area presents something of a
challenge to those who seek to use County names within it."

http://abcounties.co.uk/bpa/bpasection2.htm

To amplify my earlier comment on why their London data is utter oblox, the
use of counties in London is obsolete but they overlook completely that
each London postal district also has a name.

There is a name associated with each one* that explains its place in the
numerical order (because the numbers are based on alphabetical order of
the associated names), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that each
postcode *has* a name.

It would cause confusion for an address in Leadenhall Street EC3 to give
also the associated name for EC3 which is Fenchurch Street. *Is the E16
area still known as Victoria Docks, which is its associated name?

* Except the "1" Head Districts (W1, SE1 etc.) also W2, SW11.

You put it rather more succinctly than I managed to!

The name associated with each postal district in London is I think
best described as nominal.

Don't think the E16 area has ever been called Victoria Docks - there's
only one Victoria Dock anyway, the other docks are Royal Alvert and
King George V, and are often grouped together as the Royal Docks - but
the residential areas have gone by the names of Canning Town,
Silvertown, North Woolwich etc - no one would ever write (or have
written) Tate & Lyle, Factory Road, (North Woolwich,) *Victoria
Docks*, E16 xxx for instance.

On Aug 7, 11:56*pm, "Richard J." wrote:

wrote on 07 August 2010 22:50:20 ...

In articleFAj7o.78929$RO5.57792@hurricane, (Roy
Badami) wrote:

On 07/08/10 20:35, Peter Smyth wrote:

It is the post towns with (N) after them in this list

http://abcounties.co.uk/bpa/bpasection3.htm

Generally seems to be towns with the same name as the county, plus
other towns deemed large and famous enough to not need a county.

Thanks - that's exactly what I was looking for!

Except that it's total oblox in the London postal districts. I was brought
up in Putney and no-one but no-one has referred to that as being in Surrey
for over 150 years.

Nevertheless the list is correct in that (a) Surrey is the traditional
county name for Putney, (b) you don't need to put it in the address in
addition to "London", and (c) Royal Mail won't mind if you do include
it, though it sounds as if that's about to change.

No, I don't think Royal Mail is about to start caring about any extras
they don't need, so long as the important bits are in there - this
story is more about information being dropped from their databases.

On Aug 7, 10:50*pm, wrote:

In article oWh7o.113034$Ds3.96847@hurricane, (Roy
Badami) wrote:

On 07/08/10 18:45, Roland Perry wrote:
The county has been optional for a long time.

Ok, Wikipedia tells me the county has been optional since 1996. *I
was sure the change was more recent than that, but apparently not.

I'm still curious as to in which places the county wasn't
traditionally written, even prior to 1996. *I'm guessing Nottingham
would be another example since "Nottingham, Notts." would be
somewhat odd, as you say.

1996 is a logical date for the change. It's when the estuarial counties
created in 1974 (Avon, Humberside & Cleveland) were abolished, as far as
local government was concerned anyway.

Yes, although local government still has concerns with organisations
that cover those former counties, in the form of fire and police
forces for example...

(Ah, local government - isn't it confusingly, bemusingly fun!)

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Aug 7, 11:16*pm, wrote:

In article 5xk7o.72047$gM.61947@hurricane, (Roy
Badami) wrote:

On 07/08/10 22:37, Mizter T wrote:

I recently came across an e-commerce site that required one to
select a county from a drop down list, a list which resolutely
contained no reference to London, and wondered whether the
proprietor had designed it as such deliberately...

Living in Cambridge I'm always irritated by sites that require a
county, since no one writes "Cambridge, Cambs." - but at least
Cambridgeshire is normally offered as an option!

If I get a site insisting on a County I tend to put "X". I've not been
refused yet.

Bit hard when it's not in the drop-down list though.

Yes, but I don't remember hitting that stupidity yet, not when entering a
London address anyway.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article Xrl7o.19723$Ai7.18779@hurricane,
(Richard J.) wrote:

wrote on 07 August 2010 23:16:48 ...

To amplify my earlier comment on why their London data is utter oblox,
the use of counties in London is obsolete but they overlook completely
that each London postal district also has a name.

There is a name associated with each one* that explains its place
in the numerical order (because the numbers are based on
alphabetical order of the associated names), but I wouldn't go so
far as to say that each postcode *has* a name.

It would cause confusion for an address in Leadenhal Street EC3 to
give also the associated name for EC3 which is Fenchurch Street.
Is the E16 area still known as Victoria Docks, which is its
associated name?

* Except the "1" Head Districts (W1, SE1 etc.) also W2, SW11.

Possibly not in that example but it's been common all my life in SW15,
Putney, and SW19, Wimbledon, to my knowledge.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Aug 8, 1:08*am, wrote:

(Richard J.) wrote:

wrote on 07 August 2010 23:16:48 ...
To amplify my earlier comment on why their London data is utter oblox,
the use of counties in London is obsolete but they overlook completely
that each London postal district also has a name.

There is a name associated with each one* that explains its place
in the numerical order (because the numbers are based on
alphabetical order of the associated names), but I wouldn't go so
far as to say that each postcode *has* a name.

It would cause confusion for an address in Leadenhal Street EC3 to
give also the associated name for EC3 which is Fenchurch Street. *
Is the E16 area still known as Victoria Docks, which is its
associated name?

* Except the "1" Head Districts (W1, SE1 etc.) also W2, SW11.

Possibly not in that example but it's been common all my life in SW15,
Putney, and SW19, Wimbledon, to my knowledge.

Yes, but SW15 also includes Roehampton, and on the eastern edge it
gets pretty close to Wandsworth, plus there's that bit of Kingston
Vale (perhaps it's all of Kingston Vale, dunno where the lines are
drawn round there) down past Robin Hood roundabout.

SW19 meanwhile encompasses, in addition to Wimbledon, also takes in
Colliers Wood (or at least significant chunk thereof), Merton Park,
Summerstown (lesser known 'tis true), stretches to the edge of Morden,
and lastly such as they are distinct places, South Wimbledon and
Wimbledon Park.

So it ain't all quite that simple.