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#21
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"Alan Ben It" wrote in message
On Sep 10, 11:38 am, "Recliner" wrote: wrote in message On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:53:12 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 20:05:28 on Thu, 9 Sep 2010, remarked: You would have thought the signal allowing trains out of the bay platform would be interlocked to the points being set correctly for the route over the crossover, wouldn't you? Even in the presence of a fault condition (which they've apparently admitted)? So much for signals being failsafe. Failsafe unless the failsafe fails. Which it obviously did. Surely it was still failsafe? No trains were signalled to collide with each other. Yes they were. One train was on the line working in the wrong direction. Would you drive the wrong way on a motorway? But would the signals have stayed green if the trains approached each other closely enough to collide? |
#22
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Recliner wrote on 10 September 2010
12:50:33 ... "Alan Ben wrote in message On Sep 10, 11:38 am, wrote: wrote in message On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:53:12 +0100 Roland wrote: In message5ZudnY273pDFGRTRnZ2dnUVZ7qSdn...@giganews. com, at 20:05:28 on Thu, 9 Sep 2010, remarked: You would have thought the signal allowing trains out of the bay platform would be interlocked to the points being set correctly for the route over the crossover, wouldn't you? Even in the presence of a fault condition (which they've apparently admitted)? So much for signals being failsafe. Failsafe unless the failsafe fails. Which it obviously did. Surely it was still failsafe? No trains were signalled to collide with each other. Yes they were. One train was on the line working in the wrong direction. Would you drive the wrong way on a motorway? But would the signals have stayed green if the trains approached each other closely enough to collide? But after passing the wrongly-set points, the train departing from Plaistow was travelling west on the eastbound track, and would not have any signals to see. I'm not sure if it would have been back-tripped, but the train that ran backwards downhill on the Northern some years ago because the driver was asleep wasn't tripped for several stations IIRC. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
#24
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Alan Ben It wrote:
Boltar seems to know what he's talking about. They do say there's a first time for everything. ;-) |
#25
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On Sep 10, 1:11*pm, wrote:
In article , () wrote: On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:53:12 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 20:05:28 on Thu, 9 Sep 2010, remarked: You would have thought the signal allowing trains out of the bay platform would be interlocked to the points being set correctly for the route over the crossover, wouldn't you? Even in the presence of a fault condition (which they've apparently admitted)? So much for signals being failsafe. Failsafe unless the failsafe fails. Which it obviously did. Exactly. If there was a fault with the points, he should have been on stop and proceed at least, if allowed to move at all. -- Colin Rosenstiel It was the equipment that was faulty.The points moved when they shouldn't have. The failsafe of having points set and locked with a green signal (in this instance) failed.. No procedure was carried out. That's all that can really be said until the RAIB report comes out. When will it be a trilogy? Some people within LU are fearful that a Clapham Junction type event is round the corner |
#26
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In message
, at 04:44:08 on Fri, 10 Sep 2010, Alan Ben It remarked: Surely it was still failsafe? *No trains were signalled to collide with each other. Yes they were. One train was on the line working in the wrong direction. And what makes you think the train coming towards it had not been stopped as a result of the erroneous train occupying a track circuit (in that sense "ahead of the correctly routed train")? Just curious; I haven't seen this detail discussed, have you? -- Roland Perry |
#27
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Roland Perry wrote on 10 September 2010 15:04:42 ...
In message , at 04:44:08 on Fri, 10 Sep 2010, Alan Ben remarked: Surely it was still failsafe? No trains were signalled to collide with each other. Yes they were. One train was on the line working in the wrong direction. And what makes you think the train coming towards it had not been stopped as a result of the erroneous train occupying a track circuit (in that sense "ahead of the correctly routed train")? Just curious; I haven't seen this detail discussed, have you? The Evening Standard said that there were two signals between the two trains, both at red, and that a TfL sokesman had said "The nearest eastbound train was stationary at red signals almost a kilometre away at West Ham." But of course, as I pointed out in my post at 13:10 today, those signals only controlled eastbound trains. There would have been no signals controlling the westbound train on that track after it left Plaistow. It was only stopped thanks to the driver's alertness. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
#28
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In message , at 16:06:36 on Fri, 10
Sep 2010, Richard J. remarked: The Evening Standard said that there were two signals between the two trains, both at red, and that a TfL sokesman had said "The nearest eastbound train was stationary at red signals almost a kilometre away at West Ham." But of course, as I pointed out in my post at 13:10 today, those signals only controlled eastbound trains. There would have been no signals controlling the westbound train on that track after it left Plaistow. It was only stopped thanks to the driver's alertness. But surely that's what the much-vaunted "route knowledge" (of where the relevant signals should be) is all about - drivers knowing they are on a bit of track they shouldn't be. -- Roland Perry |
#29
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On 10 Sep, 17:23, Roland Perry wrote:
But surely that's what the much-vaunted "route knowledge" (of where the relevant signals should be) is all about - drivers knowing they are on a bit of track they shouldn't be. -- Roland Perry I think we're rather running on luck here - a lot of the holes in the Swiss cheese lined up, but crucially the Mark 1 eyeball saved the day in time. If it had been at night and the driver hadn't realised they were on the wrong road (as happened at Norton Fitzwarren 1940, where the driver also had working ATC) then perhaps the Mark 1 eyeball would have come into play at 40mph 800m closer to the other train, and then what? Clearly a wrong side failure with one of the fundamental principles of railway safety since 1889, and thus entirely justifying a hoo ha. Something's not right at LU these days. Tom |
#30
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On 10 Sep, 15:04, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 04:44:08 on Fri, 10 Sep 2010, Alan Ben It remarked: Surely it was still failsafe? *No trains were signalled to collide with each other. Yes they were. One train was on the line working in the wrong direction. And what makes you think the train coming towards it had not been stopped as a result of the erroneous train occupying a track circuit (in that sense "ahead of the correctly routed train")? Just curious; I haven't seen this detail discussed, have you? The question I hinted at way back was whether there would be any signalling or tripping affecting the wrong-way train. Obviously, being on the wrong track was something that the driver was likely to notice, but would the right-way train, stopped by a red light and occupying the track ahead, make any difference? |
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