[original thread on uk.railway and cam.transport]
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

On Sep 12, 4:55 pm, tony sayer wrote:

In article , Roy Badami
scribeth thus

When did Cambridge lose its late train back from King's Cross in the
mid-week timetable? There always used to be a (very) slow train just
after midnight; now the last train seems to be 2315...

Does anyone know whether this change is permanent, or just due to
engineering work?

In fact I've been meaning to raise this very question for some time.

[For those coming in on utl, it seems the original premise of this
thread is incorrect - however the OP's confusion is quite
understandable given that it's what an online journey planner told him
- for which we can thank the ongoing hash of the new Network Rail
timetable system which is the underlying data source for all such
journey planners.]


If you go to London to do most anything, Prom at the Albert Hall
Theatre, concert whatever and then want something to eat or drink
afterwards then you really mustn't be out that late. Tube across town to
be back before the last train goes home.

Now I seem to remember when my dad was younger i.e. back in the 30s and
40's I remember him saying that there were trains back around 1 am at
the weekends or later still you could get a mail train. Now I don't know
if thats fact or fiction so be interesting if anyone does know did
trains run so late?.

Also do other locations say within a 50 odd mile radius of London get
any late night services, or as I expect does everyone drive there and
have to park somewhere.


There are a few routes that do currently offer a regular service
throughout the night (as opposed to just a particularly late last
train):

* Southern - Victoria to Three Bridges, calling at Clapham Jn, East
Croydon, Purley, Horley, Gatwick thence to Three Bridges.

* FCC Thameslink - because of Thameslink 3000, the route is split in
two but services do still run:
- St Pancras to Bedford all stations.
- London Bridge to Three Bridges, calling at East Croydon, Gatwick
Airport thence to Three Bridges.
- FCC provides a bus link between St Pancras and London Bridge,
furthermore this isn't just a theoretical service as the buses really
do run, albeit seemingly empty much of the time!

* FGW - Paddington to Reading - well this is rather less regular, with
a two hour gap, but it is through the night.
The 01:34 and 03:34 services call at Ealing Broadway, Southall, Hayes
& Harlington, West Drayton, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford thence to
Reading.
The 00:34 calls at all these plus Langley, the 05:22 calls at Iver and
Langley, whilst the 05:17 calls at Slough only.

All are subject to bustitution because of engineering works of course
- e.g. on Sunday night/Monday morning just gone (i.e. early this
morning) the FCC Thameslink service from St Pancras to Bedford was
being bustituted as far as St Albans.


I'd have thought that there would be a demand for later services seeing
that in central London it sometimes doesn't appear to be any less busy
at 1 in the morn compared to 1 in the afternoon..

There's a big demand for the extensive night bus service in London,
which has seen a very significant expansion in recent years - a lot of
this happened under ex-Mayor Ken's watch, though there had been a bit
of a trend for more limited expansion beforehand (i.e. LT days, pre-
TfL). The majority of night bus routes are radial running from
somewhere in central-ish London out, however there are a number of
routes that don't touch central London but instead provide what are
more orbital links between districts in (Greater) London, e.g. the 93
from Putney via Wimbledon to North Cheam (though I wouldn't say
there's necessarily a clean distinction between what routes are radial
and what are orbital).

As an example of frequent services can be, the N155 - which is
basically the nocturnal version of the Northern line south of the
river - runs every 10 minutes on Friday and Saturday nights.

How well the night bus network will hold up after the October spending
review and seemingly inevitable cut to TfL's - well, we shall see. The
infamous N213 twixt Croydon to Sutton already got the chop last year.

On 13 Sep, 21:20, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 19:57:25 +0100, Roy Badami
wrote:

On 13/09/10 19:31, Mizter T wrote:

How well the night bus network will hold up after the October spending
review and seemingly inevitable cut to TfL's - well, we shall see. The
infamous N213 twixt Croydon to Sutton already got the chop last year.

The 236 is rumoured to be losing its all night service due to lack of
patronage.

It is worth considering that Walthamstow's most frequent bus service is
the weekend N38 which runs every 6 minutes. No day route runs that
frequently.

In addition when the 29/N29 goes double deck the night service will be
more frequent than the day service! *Having been insane enough to
venture into the night to snap some night buses I can confirm that the
network is surprisingly busy and often in places where you would not
expect it. *Needless to say, though, the N29 is crazily busy - certainly
more people crammed in than during the day.

I take it then that by implication the night bus service runs at a loss,
despite your comment that it is well patronized?

I think a fair few people would argue that a subsidy of £700m a year
demonstrates that the whole bus network "runs at a loss". *LRT got to
the point where the bus network almost broke even but services were
worse, vehicles were shoddy and the whole thing just felt "exhausted".
The buses had lots of pretty liveries though ;-)

I am sure large parts of the London Bus network could run profitably but
not at current fare levels nor with the current concessions. In addition
you'd have the nonsense of 300 buses chasing business on the 38 or 73
and absolutely no buses on routes like the 146, 347 or W10.

What was the N213's claim to infamy?

Mr Figgis to the Night Owl shaped telephone ....... *paging Mr Figgis
...

In short the N213 ran between Kingston and Croydon via Sutton. Both
centres provide good levels of night bus patronage - Kingston
especially. *I think it was as a result of the normal retendering cycle
that the Croydon to Sutton section of the N213 was removed as part of
the retendering of the 213. The result was that the 213 (Kingston -
Sutton) became a 24 hour service. *When the route was withdrawn it left
something of a hole in the South London night bus network and there was
quite a vigorous campaign to get it reinstated. *The main proponents
were the younger users of the route and there was a Facebook page and
all the "new media" bells and whistles that you'd expect from bright
young people who can work Facebook and mobile phones.

To be honest I can't recall quite why Mr Figgis is quite so incensed
about this route withdrawal but I'll given him 11/10 for doggedness in
reminding us about the loss of the route. *To be fair it is a stupid
link to lose as it is both a busy bus and train corridor in the day time
and there is plenty of night time activity on the corridor to be able to
sustain a night service. *Other parts of the night bus network probably
have less justification and patronage - the 83 and 474 are two that
spring to mind and the 264 was featured strongly as having 2 passengers
a night when the Gilligoon used to write inflammatory crap in the
Evening Standard.
--
Paul C

And in Walthamstow, the 58 used to have an all night service, but that
was withdrawn a few years ago due to low levels of patronage.

I live very near to the W15 bus route in Walthamstow. Until last
year, the last bus from Walthamstow towards Hackney used to leave at
just after midnight. Then a new timetable was introduced with a bus
at 00:15 and 00:30. I would like to know the reason for these extra
buses - is there that much demand for late night transport between
Walthamstow, Leyton, Leytonstone and Hackney?

The general point is that whilst it is nice to have extra buses and
more frequent services, there has to be a justification in terms of
passenger numbers or place served (eg. a hospital with an A&E dept)
Money does not grow on trees, and I think we could see some thinning
out of London bus services post October 20th.

On Sep 13, 9:20*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
In addition when the 29/N29 goes double deck the night service will be
more frequent than the day service! *Having been insane enough to
venture into the night to snap some night buses I can confirm that the
network is surprisingly busy and often in places where you would not
expect it. *Needless to say, though, the N29 is crazily busy - certainly
more people crammed in than during the day.

It's been a while since I've had the joys of the N29 (and no longer
live in Wood Green, so I'm spared it forevermore) - but on a Friday or
Saturday night, to guarantee getting on one (never mind a seat), I'd
often walk down from Tottenham Court Road to Trafalgar Square. It'd
often be sardines right through to Holloway, and you'd have to hope
for the best that it wouldn't decide to turn short at Finsbury Park.
(The high number of people squashed together also makes it a
pickpockets' paradise - often somewhere around Holloway Road, someone
would realise their pocket or handbag had been dipped, and the ne'er-
do-well was probably already back in Camden finding their next target.)

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010, martin wrote:

On Sep 13, 9:20*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

In addition when the 29/N29 goes double deck the night service will be
more frequent than the day service! *Having been insane enough to
venture into the night to snap some night buses I can confirm that the
network is surprisingly busy and often in places where you would not
expect it. *Needless to say, though, the N29 is crazily busy -
certainly more people crammed in than during the day.

It's been a while since I've had the joys of the N29 (and no longer live
in Wood Green, so I'm spared it forevermore) - but on a Friday or
Saturday night, to guarantee getting on one (never mind a seat), I'd
often walk down from Tottenham Court Road to Trafalgar Square. It'd
often be sardines right through to Holloway, and you'd have to hope for
the best that it wouldn't decide to turn short at Finsbury Park. (The
high number of people squashed together also makes it a pickpockets'
paradise - often somewhere around Holloway Road, someone would realise
their pocket or handbag had been dipped, and the ne'er- do-well was
probably already back in Camden finding their next target.)

It's still much the same! I'm glad Paul ventured out to the N29; it's a
central experience of living in northeast London. That and the 253, i
would say, are the pulsing arteries of that quadrant of the city.

tom

--
Per Dementia ad Astra

On 14 Sep, 21:05, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 20:56:11 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:





On Tue, 14 Sep 2010, martin wrote:

On Sep 13, 9:20*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

In addition when the 29/N29 goes double deck the night service will be
more frequent than the day service! *Having been insane enough to
venture into the night to snap some night buses I can confirm that the
network is surprisingly busy and often in places where you would not
expect it. *Needless to say, though, the N29 is crazily busy -
certainly more people crammed in than during the day.

It's been a while since I've had the joys of the N29 (and no longer live
in Wood Green, so I'm spared it forevermore) - but on a Friday or
Saturday night, to guarantee getting on one (never mind a seat), I'd
often walk down from Tottenham Court Road to Trafalgar Square. It'd
often be sardines right through to Holloway, and you'd have to hope for
the best that it wouldn't decide to turn short at Finsbury Park. (The
high number of people squashed together also makes it a pickpockets'
paradise - often somewhere around Holloway Road, someone would realise
their pocket or handbag had been dipped, and the ne'er- do-well was
probably already back in Camden finding their next target.)

It's still much the same! I'm glad Paul ventured out to the N29; it's a
central experience of living in northeast London. That and the 253, i
would say, are the pulsing arteries of that quadrant of the city.

I didn't say I travelled on it. I saw it (well loads of them actually)
while standing in Camden Town for nigh on an hour waiting to photograph
the N28 and N31. Thank goodness it was a warm night. *Still being stone
cold sober while everyone else is on another planet or at least trying
to achieve orbit makes for some interesting observations on humanity :-)

By way of some compensation I caught the 214 from Liverpool St to Camden
at about 0230 in the morning and that was unbelievably busy. Again there
was a gap in the service but the sheer numbers travelling was something
of a revelation - worse than the rush hour.


I have experienced gridlock in New Cross more than once at that time
in the morning, with the buses packed as well. Hard to believe, but a
chat with a driver suggested that it's normal.

On 14/09/2010 07:59, Paul wrote:
On 13 Sep, 21:20, Paul wrote:

In short the N213 ran between Kingston and Croydon via Sutton. Both
centres provide good levels of night bus patronage - Kingston
especially. I think it was as a result of the normal retendering cycle
that the Croydon to Sutton section of the N213 was removed as part of
the retendering of the 213. The result was that the 213 (Kingston -
Sutton) became a 24 hour service. When the route was withdrawn it left
something of a hole in the South London night bus network

The N213 replaced a radial route when it was first extended from Sutton
to Croydon. From zone 1 the radial bus used to take about 3 weeks (IIRC,
it was one of those "try it once then not bother again except in
desperation" things), and getting a fast train to East Croydon then the
"new" N213 made more sense, or at least felt like it did. Now there is
nowt.

and there was
quite a vigorous campaign to get it reinstated. The main proponents
were the younger users of the route and there was a Facebook page and
all the "new media" bells and whistles that you'd expect from bright
young people who can work Facebook and mobile phones.

And all the success you would expect from such a campaign, too...

Actually, I have a suspicion that a local MP may have had a greater role
in the campaign than was immediately apparent. But maybe I'm just too
cynical.

To be honest I can't recall quite why Mr Figgis is quite so incensed
about this route withdrawal

Merely the obvious "long walk" or "a taxi costs /how/ much?" factor
since its demise (plus people now seem to expect me to mention it!)

I guess you know you've been in London too long when you start
complaining about the buses...
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 20:56:11 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010, martin wrote:

On Sep 13, 9:20 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

In addition when the 29/N29 goes double deck the night service will be
more frequent than the day service! Having been insane enough to
venture into the night to snap some night buses I can confirm that the
network is surprisingly busy and often in places where you would not
expect it. Needless to say, though, the N29 is crazily busy -
certainly more people crammed in than during the day.

It's been a while since I've had the joys of the N29 (and no longer live
in Wood Green, so I'm spared it forevermore) - but on a Friday or
Saturday night, to guarantee getting on one (never mind a seat), I'd
often walk down from Tottenham Court Road to Trafalgar Square. It'd
often be sardines right through to Holloway, and you'd have to hope for
the best that it wouldn't decide to turn short at Finsbury Park. (The
high number of people squashed together also makes it a pickpockets'
paradise - often somewhere around Holloway Road, someone would realise
their pocket or handbag had been dipped, and the ne'er- do-well was
probably already back in Camden finding their next target.)

It's still much the same! I'm glad Paul ventured out to the N29; it's a
central experience of living in northeast London. That and the 253, i
would say, are the pulsing arteries of that quadrant of the city.

I didn't say I travelled on it. I saw it (well loads of them actually)
while standing in Camden Town for nigh on an hour waiting to photograph
the N28 and N31. Thank goodness it was a warm night. Still being stone
cold sober while everyone else is on another planet or at least trying
to achieve orbit makes for some interesting observations on humanity :-)

By way of some compensation I caught the 214 from Liverpool St to Camden
at about 0230 in the morning and that was unbelievably busy. Again there
was a gap in the service but the sheer numbers travelling was something
of a revelation - worse than the rush hour.

The N279 I eventually got home ended up being extremely busy as there'd
been an inordinate gap in the service.

I have endured the 29 and 253 many times in daytime service and am still
surprised just how ridiculously busy those routes are.

For a real laugh, try this. Get yourself to Trafalgar Square at about
01:15 - 01:45 on a Saturday Morning. Position yourself so you will be first
into the rear set of doors when the N29 turns up. Get on and sit yourself up
the back looking down the bus. Enjoy the floorshow! As an aside, the bus
will be crush loaded by the time it gets to Leicester Square! (For those
unfamiliar with the route that's 3 stops, counting the start stop) You can
also give a cheery wave to all the people that get left behind at Camden on
account of the driver never stopping at the stop outside Sainsburys, if you
need an N29 at the weekend from Camden, walk up to the Camden Road stop, coz
it ain't gonna' stop anywhere else...
--
Cheers, Steve
To reply change the exclamatory smelly stuff to a well known mobile telecoms
company.

I stumbled across this forum post with interest, and thought that you might find the following to be of interest by reply:

I'm the owner of a new company called Slingshot Travel, which is effectively a long-range night bus service from central London to towns beyond the M25 (except that we are a coach service).

I'm in the process of marketing and building support for such a service; but if you'd like to take a look - our site is on www.slingshot.travel, and you can follow us on:

Facebook: www.facebook.com/slingshots
Twitter: www.twitter.com/slingshottravel

All going well, we're looking at launching in April / May / June this year, starting with routes going towards Milton Keynes.

Hope this is of interest!

Atull Gupta