"Yokel" wrote
Roy Badami wrote:
Ivor The Engine wrote:
In some places, roads merge then separate but keep their numbering
before and after.

That happens here, too.
The difference is what happens during. In the UK, the common section has
the number of the most major road (only), leading the minor road(s) to be
discontinuous. In the US (and I think in many parts of Europe?) the
common section bears multiple designations.

While this is true, the road signs should show both numbers with the
"secondary" route in brackets to show that one can be reached by a turn
off the other. This is the general convention in the UK for all such
cases. A case I saw recently is near Colchester, where the A120 to / from
Harwich crosses the main A12. Both roads share the Colchester by-pass and
the road is shown as A12 (A120), with the first junction you encounter
with the A120 shown as A120 east or A120 west to help those on the A12
know which one they need to turn at.

There are some examples of poor signage where roads merge and then separate.
The A57 - the main route from Lincoln to Sheffield - merges with the A1
between Markham Moor and Apleyhead, but drivers approaching Markham Moor
from the Lincoln direction are given no clue whatsoever as to the correct
route to take, and it is not at all obvious. The A57 just disappears.

In message , at 23:13:20 on
Sun, 3 Oct 2010, John Salmon remarked:
While this is true, the road signs should show both numbers with the
"secondary" route in brackets to show that one can be reached by a
turn off the other. This is the general convention in the UK for all
such cases. A case I saw recently is near Colchester, where the A120
to / from Harwich crosses the main A12. Both roads share the
Colchester by-pass and the road is shown as A12 (A120), with the
first junction you encounter with the A120 shown as A120 east or A120
west to help those on the A12 know which one they need to turn at.

There are some examples of poor signage where roads merge and then
separate. The A57 - the main route from Lincoln to Sheffield - merges
with the A1 between Markham Moor and Apleyhead, but drivers approaching
Markham Moor from the Lincoln direction are given no clue whatsoever as
to the correct route to take, and it is not at all obvious. The A57
just disappears.

I don't think the brackets indicate a merged route. They simply say that
"if you take this route you'll eventually get to the bracketed road".
Sometimes that'll be because it de-merges, but it's just as likely that
you'll have to take several turns. An example near my house is this one,
where the road to the right is neither jointly the M1, nor does it
demerge into the M1 (which is actually 10 miles *behind* the camera).

What the sign (on the A6011 at this point) is saying is:

Straight ahead is the A52, which eventually crosses (at right angles)
the A46.

To the right is also the A52, which eventually crosses (at right
angles) he A606; and also to the right (a long way and many
junctions) is the M1.

http://goo.gl/maps/P703

This is consistent with your observation at Markham Moor... the A1 is
not intended to be a road "merged with" the A57, the latter road simply
stops there. Go north a junction, and there are signs pointing north
saying "this way to Doncaster on the A1, and incidentally this leads to
the A57 for Sheffield and Worksop"; but the one pointing south is just
A1 Newark/London. http://goo.gl/maps/pMGR

Slightly to the north, this sign doesn't even have a (A57) for Lincoln:
http://goo.gl/maps/3VxV
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote
John Salmon remarked:

There are some examples of poor signage where roads merge and then
separate. The A57 - the main route from Lincoln to Sheffield - merges with
the A1 between Markham Moor and Apleyhead, but drivers approaching Markham
Moor from the Lincoln direction are given no clue whatsoever as to the
correct route to take, and it is not at all obvious. The A57 just
disappears.

I don't think the brackets indicate a merged route. They simply say that
"if you take this route you'll eventually get to the bracketed road".

I didn't mention brackets - that was the previous poster.

This is consistent with your observation at Markham Moor... the A1 is not
intended to be a road "merged with" the A57, the latter road simply stops
there.

But it starts again a few miles along the A1. What is that if it isn't a
"merged route"? [1]

Go north a junction, and there are signs pointing north saying "this way
to Doncaster on the A1, and incidentally this leads to...

Not "leads to"; it *is* the A57...

... the A57 for Sheffield and W******"; [2]

I still think the situation at Markham Moor, as viewed by a driver going
from Lincoln (on the A57) to Sheffield (on the A57), is most unsatisfactory.

[1] Incidentally, the A57 has been merged with the A1 between Markham Moor
and Apleyhead (formerly known as Five Lane(s) End(s)), (and the A614 has
been merged with the A1 between Apleyhead and Blyth) ever since the combined
Retford/Doncaster bypass opened around 50 years ago. Prior to that, the
stretch of road being discussed *was* the A57.

[2] Expletive (from the point of view of a Retfordian) deleted.
:-)

In message , at 13:58:39 on
Mon, 4 Oct 2010, John Salmon remarked:

"Roland Perry" wrote
John Salmon remarked:

There are some examples of poor signage where roads merge and then
separate. The A57 - the main route from Lincoln to Sheffield - merges
with the A1 between Markham Moor and Apleyhead, but drivers
approaching Markham Moor from the Lincoln direction are given no clue
whatsoever as to the correct route to take, and it is not at all
obvious. The A57 just disappears.

I don't think the brackets indicate a merged route. They simply say
that "if you take this route you'll eventually get to the bracketed
road".

I didn't mention brackets

I never claimed you did.

- that was the previous poster.

Hence the additional chevron.

This is consistent with your observation at Markham Moor... the A1 is
not intended to be a road "merged with" the A57, the latter road
simply stops there.

But it starts again a few miles along the A1. What is that if it isn't
a "merged route"? [1]

It's one road taking over the route of another, and the road being
renumbered. Remember where this started - one road having two numbers
simultaneously (as in some foreign countries). It isn't like that here.

Go north a junction, and there are signs pointing north saying "this
way to Doncaster on the A1, and incidentally this leads to...

Not "leads to"; it *is* the A57...

No, it's the A1.

... the A57 for Sheffield and W******"; [2]

I still think the situation at Markham Moor, as viewed by a driver
going from Lincoln (on the A57) to Sheffield (on the A57), is most
unsatisfactory.

Perhaps they should add Sheffield to the signs he
http://goo.gl/maps/ous2, although the only other choice is:
http://goo.gl/maps/OumL

[1] Incidentally, the A57 has been merged with the A1 between Markham
Moor and Apleyhead (formerly known as Five Lane(s) End(s)), (and the
A614 has been merged with the A1 between Apleyhead and Blyth) ever
since the combined Retford/Doncaster bypass opened around 50 years ago.
Prior to that, the stretch of road being discussed *was* the A57.

There's a bit of the M25 near South Mimms that "used to be" something
else (A6 probably), before the plonked the M25 on top of it. At least
they gave non-motorway drivers a new alignment alongside (albeit a
B-road): http://goo.gl/maps/PFIN
--
Roland Perry

On 04/10/2010 14:38, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:58:39 on
Mon, 4 Oct 2010, John Salmon remarked:

"Roland Perry" wrote
John Salmon remarked:

There are some examples of poor signage where roads merge and then
separate. The A57 - the main route from Lincoln to Sheffield -
merges with the A1 between Markham Moor and Apleyhead, but drivers
approaching Markham Moor from the Lincoln direction are given no
clue whatsoever as to the correct route to take, and it is not at
all obvious. The A57 just disappears.

I don't think the brackets indicate a merged route. They simply say
that "if you take this route you'll eventually get to the bracketed
road".

I didn't mention brackets

I never claimed you did.

- that was the previous poster.

Hence the additional chevron.

This is consistent with your observation at Markham Moor... the A1
is not intended to be a road "merged with" the A57, the latter road
simply stops there.

But it starts again a few miles along the A1. What is that if it
isn't a "merged route"? [1]

It's one road taking over the route of another, and the road being
renumbered. Remember where this started - one road having two numbers
simultaneously (as in some foreign countries). It isn't like that here.

Go north a junction, and there are signs pointing north saying "this
way to Doncaster on the A1, and incidentally this leads to...

Not "leads to"; it *is* the A57...

No, it's the A1.

... the A57 for Sheffield and W******"; [2]

I still think the situation at Markham Moor, as viewed by a driver
going from Lincoln (on the A57) to Sheffield (on the A57), is most
unsatisfactory.

Perhaps they should add Sheffield to the signs he
http://goo.gl/maps/ous2, although the only other choice is:
http://goo.gl/maps/OumL

[1] Incidentally, the A57 has been merged with the A1 between Markham
Moor and Apleyhead (formerly known as Five Lane(s) End(s)), (and the
A614 has been merged with the A1 between Apleyhead and Blyth) ever
since the combined Retford/Doncaster bypass opened around 50 years
ago. Prior to that, the stretch of road being discussed *was* the A57.

There's a bit of the M25 near South Mimms that "used to be" something
else (A6 probably), before the plonked the M25 on top of it. At least
they gave non-motorway drivers a new alignment alongside (albeit a
B-road): http://goo.gl/maps/PFIN

It used to be the Rickmansworth by-pass. I once had a friend in King's
Langley and remember using this bypass long before the M25 arrived - I
wondered why it had a right-angled bend with an apparently unnecessary
roundabout and slip roads (now part of one of the M25 junctions). But
they obviously knew it was coming and so there had been some forward
planning.

This did not extend to the junction with the M1, and for a time
clockwise on the M25 to north on the M1 meant actually turning off onto
another local dual carriageway before the current (or the one which is
just being upgraded) arrangement was built.

--
- Yokel -

Yokel posts via a spam-trap account which is not read

In message , at 20:19:49 on
Wed, 6 Oct 2010, Yokel remarked:
There's a bit of the M25 near South Mimms that "used to be" something
else (A6 probably), before the plonked the M25 on top of it. At least
they gave non-motorway drivers a new alignment alongside (albeit a
B-road): http://goo.gl/maps/PFIN

It used to be the Rickmansworth by-pass. I once had a friend in King's
Langley and remember using this bypass long before the M25 arrived - I
wondered why it had a right-angled bend with an apparently unnecessary
roundabout and slip roads (now part of one of the M25 junctions). But
they obviously knew it was coming and so there had been some forward
planning.

That's a completely different bit of M25, about 15 miles away.
--
Roland Perry

Yokel wrote on 06 October 2010
20:19:49 ...
On 04/10/2010 14:38, Roland Perry wrote:

There's a bit of the M25 near South Mimms that "used to be" something
else (A6 probably), before the plonked the M25 on top of it. At least
they gave non-motorway drivers a new alignment alongside (albeit a
B-road): http://goo.gl/maps/PFIN

Yes, that alignment between just south of South Mimms and London Colney
became dual carriageway at some time before 1967, and was the A6. I
suspect it wasn't built to motorway standard and had to be
widened/reconstructed to turn it into the M25 (junctions 22 to 23) in 1986.

It used to be the Rickmansworth by-pass.

That was a different road. It was built to motorway standard and opened
in 1975 as A405 (North Orbital Road). It became M25 in 1985, junctions
17 to 19, inculding the long slip road at J.19 to link with A41.

... - I wondered why it had a right-angled bend with an apparently
unnecessary roundabout and slip roads (now part of one of the M25
junctions).

That's J.17, with a link to A412 at Maple Cross.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On 2010\10\06 21:23, Richard J. wrote:
Yokel wrote on 06 October 2010
20:19:49 ...
On 04/10/2010 14:38, Roland Perry wrote:

There's a bit of the M25 near South Mimms that "used to be" something
else (A6 probably), before the plonked the M25 on top of it. At least
they gave non-motorway drivers a new alignment alongside (albeit a
B-road): http://goo.gl/maps/PFIN

Yes, that alignment between just south of South Mimms and London Colney
became dual carriageway at some time before 1967, and was the A6. I
suspect it wasn't built to motorway standard and had to be
widened/reconstructed to turn it into the M25 (junctions 22 to 23) in 1986.

IIRC it was used unchanged in the South Mimms area.

"John Salmon" wrote in message
...

I still think the situation at Markham Moor, as viewed by a driver going
from Lincoln (on the A57) to Sheffield (on the A57), is most
unsatisfactory.

[1] Incidentally, the A57 has been merged with the A1 between Markham Moor
and Apleyhead (formerly known as Five Lane(s) End(s)), (and the A614 has
been merged with the A1 between Apleyhead and Blyth) ever since the
combined Retford/Doncaster bypass opened around 50 years ago. Prior to
that, the stretch of road being discussed *was* the A57.

I was going to say, not so much "merged with" as "appropriated". It has to
be said that the Retford bypass is showing its age - the bit near Elkesley
is particularly awful, especially since they completed the grade separations
between Blyth and Stamford.

Regards

Jonathan

"Jonathan Morton" wrote
"John Salmon" wrote
I still think the situation at Markham Moor, as viewed by a driver going
from Lincoln (on the A57) to Sheffield (on the A57), is most
unsatisfactory.

[1] Incidentally, the A57 has been merged with the A1 between Markham
Moor and Apleyhead (formerly known as Five Lane(s) End(s)), (and the A614
has been merged with the A1 between Apleyhead and Blyth) ever since the
combined Retford/Doncaster bypass opened around 50 years ago. Prior to
that, the stretch of road being discussed *was* the A57.

I was going to say, not so much "merged with" as "appropriated". It has to
be said that the Retford bypass is showing its age - the bit near Elkesley
is particularly awful, especially since they completed the grade
separations between Blyth and Stamford.

Indeed so. I was Clerk to Elkesley Parish Council from 1996 until 2005, and
I wrote numerous letters to the Highways Agency alerting them to various
issues arising out of the scheme to eliminate the six roundabouts. Most of
these letters seemed to fall on deaf ears, and even now the residents of
Elkesley are still waiting for the 'promised' bridge to reconnect them to
the outside world. The village is virtually cut off whenever there is an
incident on the A1 (and almost so, even when there isn't an incident!) The
only other way in and out of the village is via a country lane through a
ford.