On Oct 7, 8:17 pm, (Roy Badami) wrote:

In article ,
tim.... wrote:

It seems that the normal DR from Cambridge to London is at a discount to
the
"normal" DR to London as it costs less than a ticket to the boundary
station

It may be relevent that there is some competition on this route off
peak. There are FCC trains to Kings Cross and (slower) NXEA trains to
Liverpool Street. FCC own the "Route Any Permited" flow but there are
also "Route NXEA only" tickets offered off peak.

Yes, I think tim might be getting muddled/sidetracked by the existence of
these fares.

In article ,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Oct 7, 11:36 pm, wrote:

(Mizter T) wrote:

On Oct 7, 4:36 pm, wrote:

(tim....) wrote:

I would have to suggest that if at least one return tube journey
wasn't being made, no-one would even consider a travelcard as
the appropriate ticket.

I would expect the majority of day travelcard purchasers to make
precisely one return tube journey.

I reckon a good number make more than just a straightforward return
journey on the Tube when in London. As to the how much travelling
within London an outboundary Travelcard holder from somewhere like
Cambridge does, it'd be interesting to have some figures - I'd
guess that TfL and the TOCs might have some broad estimates, though
I'd also guess that any such data would quite likely be considered
commercially confidential.

Some for sure but not the largest number I'll bet.

In the absence of any data, said bet isn't going to get very far!

My data is conversation with fellow-travellers. Only anecdotal, I admit.

As I understood that the travelcard "add on" was "mandated" at a
fixed amount more than the DR, I find your difference
surprising.

I thought that too but it appears that the travelcard addon price
varies hugely and totally lacks transparency.

It's a commercial decision made by the TOCs - though I'm unclear on
whether outboundary Day Travelcards contribute towards the
regulatory fares basket.

What I really don't understand is why it's gone up so steeply from £1
in 2001 to £6.50 now. That must be outside the regulatory controls.

That much - ouch! Yes, seems likely it isn't regulated, but I think
the fares basket regulatory mechanism can make things more
complicated than that.

You see why I get annoyed about it! It's more difficult for passengers
with railcards if one is not sure whether one will make 2 or 3 tube
journeys. I've had cases where 3 were expected so a travelcard was bought
but only two were made in the end, costing more and the other way round
with higher Oyster fares than the travelcard would have cost.

It used to be a no-brainer to get a travelcard. Now you need to do careful
sums to avoid a rip-off. Most passengers, from my observations, clearly
don't stop to do the sums. FCC and NXEA are coining it as a result.

I would assume that there is a set amount that must then go into
the 'Travelcard pot' (for later sharing out) from each outboundary
TC purchase though - but how much that is will surely be a
commercially confidential bit of information.

FCC claimed to me that the rate was set for them by TfL.

Well that's nonsense. Anyhow inboundary Travelcard prices are set
jointly by TfL and ATOC, as it's a joint product - my understanding
is that the Mayor through TfL can veto above RPI price rises (which
Ken did much if not all the time, whilst Boris agreed to an above
RPI rise for 2010 fares).

Why should a London Mayor intervene on behalf of people outside London?
We're not his constituents.

So whatever the underlying amount that FCC has to put into the
Travelcard pot is not itself solely set by TfL anyway.

Clearly. But they never admit how the set those fares.

Consider Oxford and Cambridge. Same Day Return fares to London
Terminals (£20 or £13.20 with railcard, TOCs in same ownership
(First Group) but Cambridge's travelcard addon is more than
double Oxford's.

Yes, it varies by TOC - FCC and SWT seem to particularly take the
mickey w.r.t. the level at which they set the 'add-on'. I did a
little research on this yesterday evening comparing fares from
various places in the south east, which if you're lucky might
result in a post in the future.

Yes, I was set off on this by an Observer survey of season ticket
rates where the same nonsenses exist between London Terminals and
Travelcard rates.

Seasons to London Terminals from the south east are regulated - are
outboundary Travelcards subject to any regulation per se? Perhaps
not - instead a sort of self-regulation mechanism might be relied
upon (i.e. if the outboundary Travelcard price is more than a
rail-only season plus inboundary season Travelcard, the existence
of the outboundary season TC would be pointless.)

You're assuming the passengers would notice they should have two seasons.
My bet is that many are repeat purchases without alternatives being
evaluated.

However one thing I would say is that whilst outboundary Travelcard
prices from stations not far beyond the zonal boundary (such as Bat
& Ball and Sevenoaks) are often something of a considerable jump up
from the inboundary price (i.e. just zones 1-6), at quick glance it
doesn't appear that any of these add-ons is more than the cost of
an (inboundary) z1&2 Day Travelcard. If it was, it'd just encourage
people to sidestep it through split-ticketing, or drive people to,
er, drive (or whatever) to a station within the zonal boundary (of
course the latter happens to an extent anyway).

The Cambridge addon (£6.50) is more than the Zones 1 & 2 off-peak cap
(£5.60) UIVMM.

Bearing in mind that PAYG caps are now at the same level as their
Day Travelcard equivalents...

The Cambridge add-on is in fact more than a zone 1-4 off peak Day
Travelcard/ off-peak cap at £6.30.

Ugh! I also bet that few Cambridge Day Travelcard users go outside zones 1
and 2.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Oct 7, 8:17 pm, (Roy Badami) wrote:

In article ,
tim.... wrote:

It seems that the normal DR from Cambridge to London is at a discount
to the "normal" DR to London as it costs less than a ticket to the
boundary station

It may be relevent that there is some competition on this route off
peak. There are FCC trains to Kings Cross and (slower) NXEA trains to
Liverpool Street. FCC own the "Route Any Permited" flow but there are
also "Route NXEA only" tickets offered off peak.

Yes, I think tim might be getting muddled/sidetracked by the
existence of these fares.

Actually, both the FCC and Super Off Peak NXEA fares are simpler because
the travelcard addon is less than £3.60 for railcard users, £3.30 in fact.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Mizter T wrote

I would assume that there is a set amount that must then go into the
'Travelcard pot' (for later sharing out) from each outboundary TC
purchase
though - but how much that is will surely be a commercially
confidential bit
of information.

As I recall previous discussion, it's more complex than that.

The TOC that sells a TC also gets to keep a proportion of the price.
This was revealed when there was an accounting scam whereby the correct
number of TCs was reported but it was pretended they had been bought at
a station that gave a bigger cut - because it had no tube station ?

However one thing I would say is that whilst outboundary Travelcard
prices
from stations not far beyond the zonal boundary (such as Bat & Ball
and
Sevenoaks) are often something of a considerable jump up from the
inboundary
price (i.e. just zones 1-6), at quick glance it doesn't appear that
any of
these add-ons is more than the cost of an (inboundary) z1&2 Day
Travelcard.

As I have previously noted, in SWT land it can be worthwhile to buy a
return to a Z6 station plus a inboundary 1-6 ODTC thus avoiding the
evening peak restriction at a very samll premium to the SOP with that
restriction.

W-O-T with Super Off-Peak ODTC £11.00 (7.25)
W-O-T to Surbiton Off-peak return plus ODTC @7.50 £11.85 (7.90)
W-O-T with Off-Peak ODTC £13.80 (9.10)


And to answer the question "is Oyster PAYG always cheaper"

a paper ticket is certainly cheaper is when you make only one trip all
day, it's in the evening peak, and you get a gold card or Railcard 1/3
discount.

Surbiton [National Rail] to Waterloo £4.90 Oyster, £5.00 Anytime
single, ~£3.80 with gold card or Railcard.


--
Mike D