On 23/10/2010 22:40, Nick wrote:
On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 10:12:29 +0100, "Jim
wrote this:

How would you stop the trains becoming doss houses ?
How would you stop gangs of yobs from boarding for
a variety of illegal/antisocial purposes?

How would you stop them now?

Is this an invitation for a long thread with each posting ending with
the words "... it's the only language they understand"?

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Nick wrote:
On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 10:12:29 +0100, "Jim Hawkins"
wrote this:

How would you stop the trains becoming doss houses ?
How would you stop gangs of yobs from boarding for
a variety of illegal/antisocial purposes?

How would you stop them now?

Nick

It doesn't happen, largely because dossers can't afford tickets
and most yobs don't want to buy them.
But please tell me, how are they going to be stopped in a
ticket-free situation ?
I'm not rubbishing the idea of free train travel, but the obvious
potential problems need to be addressed.

Jim Hawkins

On 24 Oct, 09:43, "Jim Hawkins" wrote:
Nick wrote:
On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 10:12:29 +0100, "Jim Hawkins"
wrote this:

How would you stop the trains becoming doss houses ?
How would you stop gangs of yobs from boarding for
a variety of illegal/antisocial purposes?

How would you stop them now?

Nick

It doesn't happen, largely because dossers can't afford tickets
and most yobs don't want to buy them.
But please tell me, *how are they going to be stopped in a
ticket-free situation ?
I'm not rubbishing the idea of free train travel, but the obvious
potential problems need to be addressed.

Jim Hawkins

I think he was asking for evidence that a theoretical requirement to
pay for a ticket currently keeps such people out of unstaffed, open-
barriered stations.

The issue is staffing, not fares.

On 23 Oct, 22:18, "Jim Hawkins" wrote:
Stephen Furley wrote:
On 23 Oct, 10:12, "Jim Hawkins" wrote:

How would you stop the trains becoming doss houses ?
How would you stop gangs of yobs from boarding for
a variety of illegal/antisocial purposes?

Why would you want to stop somebody doing something just because it's
illegal? Being illegal doesn't make something bad, or good.

Depends what it is, does it not.
Most people wouldn't want to be robbed, for example. *A gang of yobs might
well be able to rob a coach full of pax, pull the cord and jump off before
the fuzz got anywhere near.

But what does that have to do with whether the railway is free to use
or not. If they were the sort of people who were planning to rob a
coach full of passengers are you seriously suggesting that they'd be
put off doing so by the thought of getting on the train without a
ticket? Even if they were, if they were about to rob people of
hundreds or thousands of pounds they could pay a couple of pounds for
a single to the next station.

I think we both agree that robbing people is wrong, but is it wrong
because it does harm to people, or is it wrong because it is illegal?

As for anti-social activities, people do these things today; charging
for the use of the railways doesn't stop them from doing so.

It presents them with novel opportunities that they might not be able
to resist.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying here.

MIG wrote:
On 24 Oct, 09:43, "Jim Hawkins" wrote:
Nick wrote:
On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 10:12:29 +0100, "Jim Hawkins"
wrote this:

How would you stop the trains becoming doss houses ?
How would you stop gangs of yobs from boarding for
a variety of illegal/antisocial purposes?

How would you stop them now?

Nick

It doesn't happen, largely because dossers can't afford tickets
and most yobs don't want to buy them.
But please tell me, how are they going to be stopped in a
ticket-free situation ?
I'm not rubbishing the idea of free train travel, but the obvious
potential problems need to be addressed.

Jim Hawkins

I think he was asking for evidence that a theoretical requirement to
pay for a ticket currently keeps such people out of unstaffed, open-
barriered stations.

The issue is staffing, not fares.

As we've never had free train travel there isn't any evidence of misuse,
only obvious possibilities.
It's up to the proponents of free train travel to convince us that they've
looked at likely criminality and antisocial behaviour resulting from the
idea and shown how, if it occurred, it might be countered.
Adequate staffing or policing of stations and trains is one obvious answer.
The likely costs of that would need to be taken into account, but might not
be so high as to turn an overall net saving into a loss.
But the greatest barrier to free train travel will be the hostility of the
TOCs and other comnpanies - not to mention the Tory party - to the idea.
How is that to be overcome ?

Jim Hawkins

On 24 Oct, 13:31, "Jim Hawkins" wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 24 Oct, 09:43, "Jim Hawkins" wrote:
Nick wrote:
On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 10:12:29 +0100, "Jim Hawkins"
wrote this:

How would you stop the trains becoming doss houses ?
How would you stop gangs of yobs from boarding for
a variety of illegal/antisocial purposes?

How would you stop them now?

Nick

It doesn't happen, largely because dossers can't afford tickets
and most yobs don't want to buy them.
But please tell me, how are they going to be stopped in a
ticket-free situation ?
I'm not rubbishing the idea of free train travel, but the obvious
potential problems need to be addressed.

Jim Hawkins

I think he was asking for evidence that a theoretical requirement to
pay for a ticket currently keeps such people out of unstaffed, open-
barriered stations.

The issue is staffing, not fares.

As we've never had free train travel there isn't any evidence of misuse,
only obvious possibilities.

I think there is evidence of misuse in some places (eg south coast)
and lack of misuse in other places (Tyne & Wear suggested).

But no evidence that fares have much to do with it.


It's up to the proponents of free train travel to convince us that they've
looked at likely criminality and antisocial behaviour resulting from the
idea and shown how, if it occurred, it might be countered.
Adequate staffing or policing of stations and trains is one obvious answer.
The likely costs of that would need to be taken into account, but might not
be so high as to turn an overall net saving into a loss.
But the greatest barrier to free train travel will be the hostility of the
TOCs and other comnpanies - not to mention the Tory party - to the idea.
How is that to be overcome ?

Jim Hawkins

ISTR back in the days before reorganisation didn't the Passenger
Transport Authority Of The Peoples Republic Of South Yorkshire freeze
bus fares for quite a while, and then produce a paper proposing free
travel as the costs of collecting fares would exceed revenue
generated.

--
Nick