In misc.transport.urban-transit Robert Woolley wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:03:32 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:
unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.

http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.

low floor with ramp is accessible, unless a lot of ramps have been
retrofitted the first couple thousand low floors were delived without the
ramps....will double check with my source in London.

Bob


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In misc.transport.urban-transit Access Systems wrote:
In misc.transport.urban-transit Robert Woolley wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:03:32 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:
unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.

low floor with ramp is accessible, unless a lot of ramps have been
retrofitted the first couple thousand low floors were delived without the
ramps....will double check with my source in London.

my check shows that as of Sept approx 3500 of the 5500 LT buses are Low
floor, most of these have a kneeling feature and space on board for
wheelchairs but most do not comply with DDA (UK-ADA) "only the low floor
buses with the double center doors have the power ramps"

LT proclaims that their bus fleet will be fully DDA compliant by 2017

NYC TA buses have been 100% ADA compliant for a number of years...

also a much higher percentage of the subway (tube) stations are
accessible..

Bob



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Access Systems wrote:
Access Systems wrote:
Robert Woolley wrote:
wrote:
unfortunately for some stupid reason most of those buses do not actually
have the ramp installed.
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk...lowfloor.shtml

there are some 5,600 fully accessible buses in service in London,
compared to a quoted figure on MTA's web page at

LOW floor does not = accessible

That depends on the driver.

The vast majority of these have ramps.

Low floor plus ramp looks pretty accessible to me.

low floor with ramp is accessible, unless a lot of ramps have been
retrofitted the first couple thousand low floors were delived without the
ramps....will double check with my source in London.

my check shows that as of Sept approx 3500 of the 5500 LT buses are Low
floor, most of these have a kneeling feature and space on board for
wheelchairs but most do not comply with DDA (UK-ADA) "only the low floor
buses with the double center doors have the power ramps"

Those are the only ones with extending ramps, but IIRC a lot of the
others have automatic folding ramps, which are usually more efficient.
However, ramp reliability is a problem - probably the biggest reason for
buses not being fully accessible.

More and more London bus routes are cashless, so in future some
operators may use manually folding ramps, which will solve the
reliability problem.

LT proclaims that their bus fleet will be fully DDA compliant by 2017

I thought they were claiming 2012?

NYC TA buses have been 100% ADA compliant for a number of years...

Access Systems wrote in message ...
also a much higher percentage of the subway (tube) stations are
accessible..

Thats because they're not nearly so deep down and so its a lot easier to
retro fit lifts. Though to be honest even assuming someone in a wheelchair
could get down to the platform , how they'd get on a tube train in the rush
hour beats me.

B2003

In misc.transport.urban-transit Boltar wrote:
Access Systems wrote in message ...
also a much higher percentage of the subway (tube) stations are
accessible..

Thats because they're not nearly so deep down and so its a lot easier to

only a small percentage are "deep" what's the problem with the rest

retro fit lifts. Though to be honest even assuming someone in a wheelchair
could get down to the platform , how they'd get on a tube train in the rush
hour beats me.

why should there be a problem...people in wheelchairs regularly ride NYC
and Tokyo subways at rush hour, what makes the tube any less possible.

this has always been the biggest obstacle to access, people who have never
been there (using a wheelchair) telling the users what they "can't" do
without ever bothering to find out what they "can do".

the last couple times WMATA (DC) tried to count the number of wheelchair
users they gave up because there were too many. I have been on trains at
rush hour when 5,6 or more people in wheelchairs were on the same train,
and probably more I didn't see. I have heard unoffical numbers of several
thousand a day use the subway in wheelchairs. "if you build it we will
come"

but there is a certain minimum number of stations have to be accessible
for the system to be functionally usable. And it is generally been found
that the stations that need to be accessible are the same ones that
everyone else uses, so start by making the busiest stations accessible.

as an aside the loss of the World Trade center station on PATH and NYCTA
was a major loss for people with disabilites in NYC as it was the major
accessible station in lower Mannhatan and the substitute stations were for
the most part inaccessible.

Bob


--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
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Access Systems wrote in message ...
In misc.transport.urban-transit Boltar wrote:
Access Systems wrote in message ...
also a much higher percentage of the subway (tube) stations are
accessible..

Thats because they're not nearly so deep down and so its a lot easier to

only a small percentage are "deep" what's the problem with the rest

I think you missed the point.The majority of underground LU stations are
deep down bored tunnel. Installing a life means boring a shaft , not simply
cutting a hole in the roof as in NYC.


retro fit lifts. Though to be honest even assuming someone in a wheelchair
could get down to the platform , how they'd get on a tube train in the rush
hour beats me.

why should there be a problem...people in wheelchairs regularly ride NYC
and Tokyo subways at rush hour, what makes the tube any less possible.

Some types of tube trains are a lot smaller than subway trains, the platforms
are narrower and the platforms are not level with the train floors in most
cases. Also on the trains there is nowhere for a wheelchair to go other than
block the doorways causing a safety hazard.


this has always been the biggest obstacle to access, people who have never
been there (using a wheelchair) telling the users what they "can't" do
without ever bothering to find out what they "can do".

Anything can be done if you have a couple of billion to spare. LU doesn't.

everyone else uses, so start by making the busiest stations accessible.

See above.

B2003

In misc.transport.urban-transit Boltar wrote:
Access Systems wrote in message ...
In misc.transport.urban-transit Boltar wrote:
Access Systems wrote in message ...
also a much higher percentage of the subway (tube) stations are
accessible..
Thats because they're not nearly so deep down and so its a lot easier to

only a small percentage are "deep" what's the problem with the rest

I think you missed the point.The majority of underground LU stations are
deep down bored tunnel. Installing a life means boring a shaft , not simply
cutting a hole in the roof as in NYC.

only a few lines are deep, the rest are fairly shallow, and NYC has their
share of deep tunnels, boring a shaft is not as hard as it sounds (finding
a place to bore it is much harder)

retro fit lifts. Though to be honest even assuming someone in a wheelchair
could get down to the platform , how they'd get on a tube train in the rush
hour beats me.

why should there be a problem...people in wheelchairs regularly ride NYC
and Tokyo subways at rush hour, what makes the tube any less possible.

Some types of tube trains are a lot smaller than subway trains, the platforms

right the deep ones, but wheelchairs are not that big

are narrower and the platforms are not level with the train floors in most

narrow platforms are quite common in other cities, and as a few cities
have done raising a short section of the platform to floor height is quite
simple and inexpensive

cases. Also on the trains there is nowhere for a wheelchair to go other than
block the doorways causing a safety hazard.

in other words the same place as everyone else.

this has always been the biggest obstacle to access, people who have never
been there (using a wheelchair) telling the users what they "can't" do
without ever bothering to find out what they "can do".

Anything can be done if you have a couple of billion to spare. LU doesn't.

I found a long time ago, that is someone wants to do something they will
find a way, and if they don't want to do it they will find an excuse..

everyone else uses, so start by making the busiest stations accessible.

See above.

see answer above

Bob

--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin
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Access Systems wrote in message ...
I think you missed the point.The majority of underground LU stations are
deep down bored tunnel. Installing a life means boring a shaft , not simply
cutting a hole in the roof as in NYC.

only a few lines are deep, the rest are fairly shallow, and NYC has their

Only a few lines? Umm , central, northern, piccadilly, victoria, jubilee,
bakerloo, waterloo & city are all deep bored tunnel in central london
with platforms probably at an average of 70 feet down from street level.

right the deep ones, but wheelchairs are not that big

are narrower and the platforms are not level with the train floors in most

narrow platforms are quite common in other cities, and as a few cities
have done raising a short section of the platform to floor height is quite
simple and inexpensive

Not where the platform is curved (as quite a few in london are) as it will foul
the side of the train. This then requires ramps to be built into platforms
(expensive) or trains (nowhere to put them in the smaller trains).


cases. Also on the trains there is nowhere for a wheelchair to go other than
block the doorways causing a safety hazard.

in other words the same place as everyone else.

Actually no , standees can move down the aisles or sit on a seat. The aisles
are too narrow for wheelchairs.

Anything can be done if you have a couple of billion to spare. LU doesn't.

I found a long time ago, that is someone wants to do something they will
find a way, and if they don't want to do it they will find an excuse..

Given that LU doesn't currently even have enough money to maintain its
infrastructure properly I think its fair to say that spending a fortune
on making the tube accessable to a small amount of wheelchair users is
currently somewhere near the bottom of their list of priorities. That might
not be right-on and politically correct and you might not like to hear it but
its a fact. Deal.

B2003

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:01:27 -0000, Access Systems
wrote:

as an aside the loss of the World Trade center station on PATH and NYCTA
was a major loss for people with disabilites in NYC as it was the major
accessible station in lower Mannhatan and the substitute stations were for
the most part inaccessible.

The temporary PATH terminal which opened last month restored
accessibility to the E and downtown N/R platforms that are on the same
level as the former WTC Concourse.

--
Peter Schleifer
"Who mistook my steak for chicken?"

Access Systems wrote:

why should there be a problem...people in wheelchairs regularly ride NYC
and Tokyo subways at rush hour, what makes the tube any less possible.

The fact that it isn't so heavily subsidized.