On Oct 21, 8:21*pm, Arthur Figgis wrote:

On 21/10/2010 19:52, Mizter T wrote:

all that long! So yes, those who specifically want a Day Travelcard
over using Oyster will now need to get to a station in order to buy
one.

Is it possible to get Gold Card limited Oyster fare capping yet, or is
dead tree still cheaper than Oyster? I haven't asked around for some time..

Gold Card-discounted Oyster PAYG capping (i.e. the GC equivalent to
having a Railcard discount loaded on one's Oyster card) now exists -
it went live in January I think?

Anyhow, confirmation that it exists is on the TfL website he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx#tkt-tab-panel-9

I assume that if one has a Gold Card season loaded on Oyster it just
works. Though people I know who used to get inboundary Gold Cards
don't seem to do so any more.

On 21 Oct, 20:22, Mizter T wrote:
On Oct 21, 8:00*pm, MIG wrote:





On 21 Oct, 19:52, Mizter T wrote:

On Oct 21, 6:36 pm, MIG wrote:

It has really pist off the journalists, hasn't it, this burying of bad
news on CSR day?

They are saying that it's the start of an attempt to phase out
travelcards.

Given how an Oyster OSI ****up has just saddled me with a penalty
fare, and I can't be the only one, this is extremely bad news.

Is anyone actually saying it's the start of an attempt to completely
phase out Travelcards? (I mean, apart from you?)

No one apart from me, because I didn't say it. *It's just been said on
the BBC London News, and probably elsewhere.

I haven't even read the changes in detail. *I was just commenting on
the media response.

OK, sorry - afraid I rarely seem to watch the local television news
bulletins these days, so their take on matters rather passes me by -
that said the Beeb's London news operation seems relatively well
versed in matters transportational, though I'm more likely to pick up
on their output on the web, or perhaps BBC London radio (though time
constraints mean it'll only ever be a snippet).

Haven't picked up a copy of the Standard today, but looking at their
main news page on the web the new fares don't feature prominently...
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/news/

...though once you find it there's a decent piece on the changes from
Pippa Crerar (whom I rate) he
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23890196-.do

It's not a forensic analysis but I wouldn't expect that either. She
seems to confirm my earlier thoughts about the CSR announcements
w.r.t. changes to rail fares regulation pathing the way for the
Travelcard price increases (something that was definitively off the
agenda last year) - though not sure where I got RPI+2% from, as she
mentions a 6% rise.

This report http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11598617 is
focusing on what they are calling a 74% rise. The main theme of
reports I half saw/heard was that Boris was hiding the bad news on CSR
day, after giving a press conference with partial information and
giving journalists partial printouts, when it hadn't been billed as an
announcement of the new fares.

Peter Hendy came on to say that they weren't hiding anything and had
got round to releasing all the information by now, some of it today.

It seemed to be largely a story about journalists being peeved at what
they obviously perceived as an attempt to hoodwink them. That's
presumably why they are hitting back with the 74% instead of going
along with any different spin. I am pretty sure that it was one of
the journalists who made the comment about phasing out travelcards,
but I was frying potato-related foods and wasn't taking notes.

You raised an interesting point though. If capping can't very well
exceed the cost of travelcards, and travelcards are subject to
regulation, aren't day travelcards keeping the PAYG fares down? So
there's motivation anyway.

And as we know, PAYG fares aren't that cheap when they land you with a
£20 penalty fare plus escalating admin fees. Perhaps they ought to
pull their collective finger out and fix PAYG before offering it as
the wonderful, cheap alternative?

On Oct 21, 8:10*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
[snip]
The move to simplify the ODTC range looks to be very controversial
judging from press, blog and political reaction. *I suspect the public
may react rather badly to this come January because it also links to
capping levels.
[snip]

Well I'm annoyed, if not actually rather angry, about the withdrawal
of the zones 2-6 Day Travelcard and hence Oyster PAYG cap.

This is the spiel from TfL via the BBC News online story:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11598617

---quote---
Transport for London (TfL) said Zone 2-6 travelcards were used by
fewer than 6,000 passengers a day, including just 300 people during
peak times.
---/quote---

One simple question - does that "fewer than 6,000 passengers a day"
figure include those who use Oyster PAYG and get capped for z2-6, or
does it solely relate to the sale of printed paper Day Travelcards?

If it's just the latter, then that's some sleight of hand - if anyone
reading this is in a position to ask the TfL press bods for
clarification on this matter then that'd be good. (And on the
associated 300 figure for Anytime/peak z2-6 sales.)

(I'm tempted to think that post introduction of PAYG on NR, lots more
people may have been reaching the z2-6 cap.)

I've got other comments on the rest of it, so I'll come back to this
thread to post more sometime later. But this z2-6 withdrawal is a bit
of a joke - why should people pay for expensive zone 1 validity if
they don't go in it?

Perhaps we should have a fares strike...

On 21 Oct, 22:05, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 13:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:







On Oct 21, 8:10*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
[snip]
The move to simplify the ODTC range looks to be very controversial
judging from press, blog and political reaction. *I suspect the public
may react rather badly to this come January because it also links to
capping levels.
[snip]

Well I'm annoyed, if not actually rather angry, about the withdrawal
of the zones 2-6 Day Travelcard and hence Oyster PAYG cap.

This is the spiel from TfL via the BBC News online story:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11598617

---quote---
Transport for London (TfL) said Zone 2-6 travelcards were used by
fewer than 6,000 passengers a day, including just 300 people during
peak times.
---/quote---

One simple question - does that "fewer than 6,000 passengers a day"
figure include those who use Oyster PAYG and get capped for z2-6, or
does it solely relate to the sale of printed paper Day Travelcards?

If it's just the latter, then that's some sleight of hand - if anyone
reading this is in a position to ask the TfL press bods for
clarification on this matter then that'd be good. (And on the
associated 300 figure for Anytime/peak z2-6 sales.)

Oh I expect the press office will be watching the comments.

I think your question is perfectly sensible in the light of the decision
that has been taken. I can't comment any further.

I suspect there will be some interesting Mayoral Questions about the
fares package from Assembly members at the next MQT. *They were already
"revving up" in the last one - the old favourite of the "1 hour transfer
ticket" reappeared.

(I'm tempted to think that post introduction of PAYG on NR, lots more
people may have been reaching the z2-6 cap.)

I've got other comments on the rest of it, so I'll come back to this
thread to post more sometime later. But this z2-6 withdrawal is a bit
of a joke - why should people pay for expensive zone 1 validity if
they don't go in it?

Thinking about it a bit more it seems almost counter intuitive when we
are getting closer to actually having a full orbital railway which will
(almost) avoid all of zone 1.

Won't the main effect of this be to encourage people away from PAYG in
favour of seasons?

A seven-day zone 2 - 6 will be £34.40, so if you did it every day,
that's still a lot less than five times the old price peak cap (£43).
Plus you get weekends.

On Oct 21, 11:08*pm, MIG wrote:

On 21 Oct, 22:05, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 13:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:
[snip]
I've got other comments on the rest of it, so I'll come back to this
thread to post more sometime later. But this z2-6 withdrawal is a bit
of a joke - why should people pay for expensive zone 1 validity if
they don't go in it?

Thinking about it a bit more it seems almost counter intuitive when we
are getting closer to actually having a full orbital railway which will
(almost) avoid all of zone 1.

Won't the main effect of this be to encourage people away from PAYG in
favour of seasons?

A seven-day zone 2 - 6 will be £34.40, so if you did it every day,
that's still a lot less than five times the old price peak cap (£43).
Plus you get weekends.

I don't think daily price capping wasn't ever intended to serve as an
alternative to seasons for people with regular 5 day a week commutes -
furthermore I don't think 5x Anytime/peak price cap (for whatever
zones) has ever been cheaper than buying a weekly Travelcard for the
relevant zones.

Depending upon the journey, using PAYG to pay for singles can be or
has been cheaper than buying a season Travelcard for a regular 5 days
a week commute (though the calculus shifts each year with the annual
fares changes) - however it's all very much down to an individuals
expected travel patterns (e.g. how many days they won't make the
standard commute, how much extra travel they do on top of commuting,
and indeed if any of the commuting journeys might start in the off-
peak PAYG window and thus be charged as such etc etc). Also, because
of the '52 weeks for the price of 40' factor, an annual Travelcard
might still work out cheaper than PAYG in such circumstances.

On 22 Oct, 00:57, Mizter T wrote:
On Oct 21, 11:08*pm, MIG wrote:





On 21 Oct, 22:05, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 13:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:
[snip]
I've got other comments on the rest of it, so I'll come back to this
thread to post more sometime later. But this z2-6 withdrawal is a bit
of a joke - why should people pay for expensive zone 1 validity if
they don't go in it?

Thinking about it a bit more it seems almost counter intuitive when we
are getting closer to actually having a full orbital railway which will
(almost) avoid all of zone 1.

Won't the main effect of this be to encourage people away from PAYG in
favour of seasons?

A seven-day zone 2 - 6 will be £34.40, so if you did it every day,
that's still a lot less than five times the old price peak cap (£43).
Plus you get weekends.

I don't think daily price capping wasn't ever intended to serve as an
alternative to seasons for people with regular 5 day a week commutes -
furthermore I don't think 5x Anytime/peak price cap (for whatever
zones) has ever been cheaper than buying a weekly Travelcard for the
relevant zones.

No, just that the change will tip the balance in favour of weeklys for
more people than now.

In fact, even five times the off peak cap was generally more expensive
than a weekly, although that gradually changed up till just before the
cap was raised to the travelcard rate, and now it's well and truly
cheaper to get the weekly, plus have peak travel, plus have the
weekend.


Depending upon the journey, using PAYG to pay for singles can be or
has been cheaper than buying a season Travelcard for a regular 5 days
a week commute (though the calculus shifts each year with the annual
fares changes) - however it's all very much down to an individuals
expected travel patterns (e.g. how many days they won't make the
standard commute, how much extra travel they do on top of commuting,
and indeed if any of the commuting journeys might start in the off-
peak PAYG window and thus be charged as such etc etc).

Yes, as in the week before holiday after a longer season had run out,
I might opt for doing a £2.30 plus £1.80 (total £4.10) five times a
week, which was cheaper than a zone 1 - 2 weekly if I didn't think I
was going anywhere at the weekend.

But it would mean being disciplined about getting up early enough not
to need NR and staying at work long enough not to start home in the
peak. Doesn't always work out as planned.

Also, because
of the '52 weeks for the price of 40' factor, an annual Travelcard
might still work out cheaper than PAYG in such circumstances.

Only who knows if they'll be in a job that long?

On 21/10/2010 20:42, Mizter T wrote:

On Oct 21, 8:21 pm, Arthur wrote:

On 21/10/2010 19:52, Mizter T wrote:

all that long! So yes, those who specifically want a Day Travelcard
over using Oyster will now need to get to a station in order to buy
one.

Is it possible to get Gold Card limited Oyster fare capping yet, or is
dead tree still cheaper than Oyster? I haven't asked around for some time.

Gold Card-discounted Oyster PAYG capping (i.e. the GC equivalent to
having a Railcard discount loaded on one's Oyster card) now exists -
it went live in January I think?

Must have been later than that, as I've tried and failed this year.

Anyhow, confirmation that it exists is on the TfL website he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx#tkt-tab-panel-9

I assume that if one has a Gold Card season loaded on Oyster it just
works. Though people I know who used to get inboundary Gold Cards
don't seem to do so any more.

Mine is point-to-point National Rail since they did away with
single-zone annual travel cards, and still on paper.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:14:38 +0100, "tim...."
wrote:


The other interesting points I spotted is the stated ambition to try to
harmonise TfL and TOC PAYG tariffs and also the moves on child and
student discount levels with the TOCs. Railcard reductions on PAYG
rates (not just caps) will apply to the LUL and DLR PAYG off peak rates
from January 2011 (section 1.17 of the MD document).

Presumably not Network card discounts? When are they going to make that
available?

tim

On Oct 22, 12:07*pm, "tim...." wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message

news
On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:14:38 +0100, "tim...."
wrote:

The other interesting points I spotted is the stated ambition to try to
harmonise TfL and TOC PAYG tariffs and also the moves on child and
student discount levels with the TOCs. * Railcard reductions on PAYG
rates (not just caps) will apply to the LUL and DLR PAYG off peak rates
from January 2011 (section 1.17 of the MD document).

Presumably not Network card discounts? *When are they going to make that
available?

they didn't seem keen on the idea back in February:
http://mqt.london.gov.uk/mqt/public/...on.do?id=30225

On Oct 21, 9:40*pm, Mizter T wrote:

One simple question - does that "fewer than 6,000 passengers a day"
figure include those who use Oyster PAYG and get capped for z2-6, or
does it solely relate to the sale of printed paper Day Travelcards?

If it's just the latter, then that's some sleight of hand - if anyone
reading this is in a position to ask the TfL press bods for
clarification on this matter then that'd be good. (And on the
associated 300 figure for Anytime/peak z2-6 sales.)

I see someone's taken a similar question to TfL's FoI people:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...ter_cards_havi