"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Paul Scott
writes

NR have announced their initial ideas about moving the concourse
catering/retail outlets at Waterloo up to first floor level, with
escalator connections etc, freeing up space for passenger circulation.

Thanks for the link. It does seem extraordinary, though, that over a
million pounds a year is being spent in maintaining the unused Eurostar
platforms and terminal at Waterloo.

I don't believe for one minute it's costing that to maintain. That's just
the nominal amount that it could make if it were being used (but there isn't
a use for it)

tim

On 15/11/10 19:55, wrote:
It seems that this is another example of Network Rail wanting to turn
a prime site into a shopping centre, but just about tolerating
passengers (as being the prime source of customers for the shops).
What's really needed is small booths selling coffee etc. at platform
level for those of us compelled to use the trains - at a position
convenient to the trains. Who, in a rush to get their cattletruck
home, is going to go up escalators into a "shopping experience" in
search of a cup of tea?

Interesting to note that the one ground-floor level shop remaining in
the artist's impression is some sort of fashion emporium. That says it
all really! I've just to GOT to get my latest Gucci handbag en route
to platform 19 for the 18.20 to Staines!

Exactly. Not to mention the bottleneck that the escalators / lifts will be.

So the shops will lose revenue, and go bust or inflate their prices and
lose more revenue, and eventually go bust.

So then there will be this expensive white elephant project that needs
to be paid for, but which isn't generating revenue.

NR aren't worried though, if the government won't bail them out
(taxpayers pockets) they can simply charge the TOCs more to use the
station (which will come from taxpayers pockets).

Commuters don't spend 30 minutes each time they visit Waterloo wandering
round the shops, and it's not like Victoria which is (a) the London end
of some of a busy airport's main rail links (b) In a much more touristy
area and (c) better served by Underground services for visitors to the
capital.

So, who is going to use these new shops, and how where is the extra shop
turnover going to come from that will pay for the increased rents that
will be used to pay off the bank loans that the developers will,
doubtless, require NR to indemnify.

The only ways that NR will be able to pay for the white elephant when
the developer discovers that the shops can't afford the higher rents on
their reduction in passing trade induced lower turnovers will be to
either dip into taxpayers pockets or force the TOCs to dip into
passengers pockets!

Rgds

Denis McMahon

On Nov 15, 4:33*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

Those retail outlets should never have been allowed to clutter up the
concourse in the first place!


Absolutely.

The current proposals merely move what should not be there.

But you can see whats going to happen here. Clear concourse so then
they rent it out to ad hoc stalls like mobile phone proms. They do
this at St.Pancras all the time. And SPI is cited at the bottom of
the press release as an example for Waterloo to follow.


--
Nick

On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:30:04 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 15:19:12 on Mon,
15 Nov 2010, Paul Scott remarked:

NR have announced their initial ideas about moving the concourse

mid-concourse

Yes, perhaps a better description.

catering/retail outlets at Waterloo up to first floor level, with
escalator connections etc, freeing up space for passenger circulation.

Those retail outlets should never have been allowed to clutter up the
concourse in the first place!

ps What happened to the lower level Eurostar mini-concourses, next to the
check-in and around the side where you emerged off a train? Are they being
used for extra retailing.

There are other applications to use the lower parts for retail purposes but
those lower areas are BRB residuary's responsibility, rather than Network
Rail.

Is BRB Residuary being abolished as part of the government's 'cull' on
quangos?

On Nov 15, 8:34*pm, Scott wrote:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:30:04 -0000, "Paul Scott"





wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 15:19:12 on Mon,
15 Nov 2010, Paul Scott remarked:

NR have announced their initial ideas about moving the concourse

mid-concourse

Yes, perhaps a better description.

catering/retail outlets at Waterloo up to first floor level, with
escalator connections etc, freeing up space for passenger circulation.

Those retail outlets should never have been allowed to clutter up the
concourse in the first place!

ps What happened to the lower level Eurostar mini-concourses, next to the
check-in and around the side where you emerged off a train? Are they being
used for extra retailing.

There are other applications to use the lower parts for retail purposes but
those lower areas are BRB residuary's responsibility, rather than Network
Rail.

Is BRB Residuary being abolished as part of the government's 'cull' on
quangos?

Yes ... it was listed ...

.... but winding up BRBR does not imply the responsibility passes to
NR ... and just winding up the quango may well complicate Waterloo use
issue. Perhaps thats why its been avoided ?

--
Nick

"Denis McMahon" wrote in message
...
On 15/11/10 19:55, wrote:
It seems that this is another example of Network Rail wanting to turn
a prime site into a shopping centre, but just about tolerating
passengers (as being the prime source of customers for the shops).
What's really needed is small booths selling coffee etc. at platform
level for those of us compelled to use the trains - at a position
convenient to the trains. Who, in a rush to get their cattletruck
home, is going to go up escalators into a "shopping experience" in
search of a cup of tea?

Interesting to note that the one ground-floor level shop remaining in
the artist's impression is some sort of fashion emporium. That says it
all really! I've just to GOT to get my latest Gucci handbag en route
to platform 19 for the 18.20 to Staines!

Exactly. Not to mention the bottleneck that the escalators / lifts will
be.

So the shops will lose revenue, and go bust or inflate their prices and
lose more revenue, and eventually go bust.

So then there will be this expensive white elephant project that needs
to be paid for, but which isn't generating revenue.

NR aren't worried though, if the government won't bail them out
(taxpayers pockets) they can simply charge the TOCs more to use the
station (which will come from taxpayers pockets).

Commuters don't spend 30 minutes each time they visit Waterloo wandering
round the shops, and it's not like Victoria which is (a) the London end
of some of a busy airport's main rail links (b) In a much more touristy
area and (c) better served by Underground services for visitors to the
capital.

So, who is going to use these new shops, and how where is the extra shop
turnover going to come from that will pay for the increased rents that
will be used to pay off the bank loans that the developers will,
doubtless, require NR to indemnify.

The only ways that NR will be able to pay for the white elephant when
the developer discovers that the shops can't afford the higher rents on
their reduction in passing trade induced lower turnovers will be to
either dip into taxpayers pockets or force the TOCs to dip into
passengers pockets!

I don't think that the "shops" will discover this at all.

They are large national chains. They know that the footfall on the upper
floor of a railway station will be a fraction of the concourse level and
will only agree to the appropriate rent in the first place.

tim

"tim...." wrote in message
...

I don't think that the "shops" will discover this at all.

They are large national chains. They know that the footfall on the upper
floor of a railway station will be a fraction of the concourse level and
will only agree to the appropriate rent in the first place.

Also, doesn't exactly the same setup already exist at Liverpool St and
Victoria?
Surely NR aren't exactly breaking new ground here, it's a tried and tested
idea?

Paul

On 15/11/10 21:01, tim.... wrote:
"Denis McMahon" wrote in message
...
On 15/11/10 19:55, wrote:
It seems that this is another example of Network Rail wanting to turn
a prime site into a shopping centre, but just about tolerating
passengers (as being the prime source of customers for the shops).
What's really needed is small booths selling coffee etc. at platform
level for those of us compelled to use the trains - at a position
convenient to the trains. Who, in a rush to get their cattletruck
home, is going to go up escalators into a "shopping experience" in
search of a cup of tea?

Interesting to note that the one ground-floor level shop remaining in
the artist's impression is some sort of fashion emporium. That says it
all really! I've just to GOT to get my latest Gucci handbag en route
to platform 19 for the 18.20 to Staines!

Exactly. Not to mention the bottleneck that the escalators / lifts will
be.

So the shops will lose revenue, and go bust or inflate their prices and
lose more revenue, and eventually go bust.

So then there will be this expensive white elephant project that needs
to be paid for, but which isn't generating revenue.

NR aren't worried though, if the government won't bail them out
(taxpayers pockets) they can simply charge the TOCs more to use the
station (which will come from taxpayers pockets).

Commuters don't spend 30 minutes each time they visit Waterloo wandering
round the shops, and it's not like Victoria which is (a) the London end
of some of a busy airport's main rail links (b) In a much more touristy
area and (c) better served by Underground services for visitors to the
capital.

So, who is going to use these new shops, and how where is the extra shop
turnover going to come from that will pay for the increased rents that
will be used to pay off the bank loans that the developers will,
doubtless, require NR to indemnify.

The only ways that NR will be able to pay for the white elephant when
the developer discovers that the shops can't afford the higher rents on
their reduction in passing trade induced lower turnovers will be to
either dip into taxpayers pockets or force the TOCs to dip into
passengers pockets!

I don't think that the "shops" will discover this at all.

They are large national chains. They know that the footfall on the upper
floor of a railway station will be a fraction of the concourse level and
will only agree to the appropriate rent in the first place.

In which case, will the actual revenue to NR or the developer from what
the shops are prepared to pay (and are the franchise stores involved as
good at doing the projections as the national chains), or will NR / the
developer discover when they start renting properties that their income
is much less than expected, and start looking to raid passenger or
taxpayer pockets to cover the costs of the development.

I'll bet the NR / developers projections assume that retailers will pay
the same (or even more) per sq foot for "shiny new mezzanine" than they
currently pay for "dirty drafty concourse", when anyone with half a
brain can see that the reverse is more likely true because "shiny new
mezzanine" will have a greatly reduced turnover.

Rgds

Denis McMahon

Denis McMahon wrote:


Commuters don't spend 30 minutes each time they visit Waterloo wandering
round the shops, and it's not like Victoria which is (a) the London end
of some of a busy airport's main rail links

OTOH that's probably not relevant. Tourists laden down with suitcases
and in a hurry to catch a plane, are less likely to go upstairs and
look around shops. Plenty of time for that in the departure lounge
later.

But a commuter who's just missed his one-an-hour train back home to
somewhere on the south coast might want to kill time in the shops
while waiting for the next one.

(b) In a much more touristy
area and (c) better served by Underground services for visitors to the
capital.


And these probably aren't even true.

Yes, Victoria has Buckingham Palace. But Waterloo has the London Eye
(or whatever it's calling itself this week) as well as the Aquarium
and the IMAX. And it's probably more convenient for Big Ben and
Trafalgar Square too.

Meanwhile Victoria is on three Underground lines while Waterloo is on
four. Last time I checked three was less than four.

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...


"tim...." wrote in message
...

I don't think that the "shops" will discover this at all.

They are large national chains. They know that the footfall on the upper
floor of a railway station will be a fraction of the concourse level and
will only agree to the appropriate rent in the first place.

Also, doesn't exactly the same setup already exist at Liverpool St and
Victoria?
Surely NR aren't exactly breaking new ground here, it's a tried and
tested idea?

At Vic and LS there is road level access into the shopping area and many
people on their way to/from their only train of the day walk past.

There wont be to an upper floor at Waterloo and only people interchanging
between Main and East will be on that level, and even then they wont need to
walk past these shops

tim