This morning's 0655 BBC London news says that BorisBikes will be
available to casual users from the third of December.
I failed to find the relevant press release.

However, I did find:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/congestioncharging/17096.aspx
I expect this to provide a significant improvement.

Currently, if you don't make manual arrangements to pay the CC and incur
a congestion charge, you incur a penalty charge.
I live within the Congestion Charge area and can claim the 90% residents
discount. I pay for a year in advance to avoid that Penalty Charge risk.
This modification to the scheme will mean I won't need to do so.

For me, these are 2 improvements.
--
Walter Briscoe

On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 07:28:44 +0000, Walter Briscoe wrote:
This morning's 0655 BBC London news says that BorisBikes will be
available to casual users from the third of December.
I failed to find the relevant press release.

Now at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/17499.aspx

Walter Briscoe wrote on 24 November 2010
07:28:44 ...
This morning's 0655 BBC London news says that BorisBikes will be
available to casual users from the third of December.
I failed to find the relevant press release.

However, I did find:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/congestioncharging/17096.aspx
I expect this to provide a significant improvement.

Currently, if you don't make manual arrangements to pay the CC and incur
a congestion charge, you incur a penalty charge.
I live within the Congestion Charge area and can claim the 90% residents
discount. I pay for a year in advance to avoid that Penalty Charge risk.
This modification to the scheme will mean I won't need to do so.

Note that you are charged £10 annually just to be registered for CC Auto
Pay, which makes it less attractive to people who only incur the
congestion charge a few times every year. (It will take 10 visits for
the £1 discount to pay for the registration fee.)
--
Richard J.

"Walter Briscoe" wrote:

This morning's 0655 BBC London news says that BorisBikes will be
available to casual users from the third of December.
I failed to find the relevant press release.

However, I did find:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/congestioncharging/17096.aspx
I expect this to provide a significant improvement.

Currently, if you don't make manual arrangements to pay the CC and incur
a congestion charge, you incur a penalty charge.
I live within the Congestion Charge area and can claim the 90% residents
discount. I pay for a year in advance to avoid that Penalty Charge risk.
This modification to the scheme will mean I won't need to do so.

For me, these are 2 improvements.


Blimey, not sure the number heavy subject line does much for
reader-friendliness (sorry!) - you're not a coder are you perchance?

The coming of casual user access for the 'Boris bikes' is welcome - though
I'd imagine that a whole host of new potential issues will now open up, not
least because this change will effectively open up what has up until now
been a relatively closed system.

With regards to CC Auto Pay - this isn't a brand new idea on the scene, it
was certainly around in the summer during the statutory consultation on
changes to the CC (i.e. removal of the Western Extension) and I think it was
first publicly floated by TfL before that.

However the £10 annual charge for registering with CC Auto Pay didn't
feature in those earlier mentions of this facility, though TBH it's quite
understandable that there is to be some sort of maintenance charge for
benefitting from it - but compared to my original (and in retrospect naive)
assumption that it'd be free to register for Auto Pay, the annual charge
does change the economics somewhat as to whether it'd be advantageous for
those who rarely drive into the CC zone during operational hours (still
rather cheaper than a single penalty charge notice of course!).

It's also noteworthy that (for non residents) the new standard charge from 4
Jan 2011 will be £10, whilst those paying by CC Auto Pay will pay a reduced
charge of £9 - I'm not entirely sure of the thinking behind this, but it's
worth noting that vehicles registered with 'Fleet Auto Pay' (the new name
for the fleet scheme for 10+ vehicles - which is being reduced to 6+ from
the new year) currently pay a reduced £7 charge compared the the current
standard £8 charge - so perhaps they want to align the CC Auto Pay charge
with that of Fleet Auto Pay, also I guess the transaction costs with CC Auto
Pay might well be lower when compared to paying the charge each day.

The other thing that interests me about this CC Auto Pay scheme is that it
will throw some light onto how effective the CC zone cameras are at
recording the number plates of all those vehicles which drive in the (to be
shrunken) zone - regular drivers into the zone should get some idea over
time as to whether they ever simply don't get detected and hence charged for
a particular day. I wonder if it might also lead to a bout of daftness such
as drivers trying to sandwich themselves between large vehicles when passing
the cameras on the zone's boundaries in the hope of blocking their number
plates, or obscuring their plates with muck or some such? My impression is
that the cameras, which face both ways, are pretty hot at catching the
plates of all vehicles which pass by them.

What perhaps might be more likely to go undetected is vehicles moving around
solely within the zone, without passing out through the zone's boundary -
e.g. if you (Walter) were to drive your car for a short trip inside the
zone. There are mobile CC camera vans that are out and about within the
zone, but I must admit I'm not sure if there are any fixed cameras which are
hooked up to the CC system - of course there are many CCTV cameras in
central London which have a traffic monitoring role, and there are the fixed
ANPR cameras on the edges of the City of London's 'ring of steel', and I'm
pretty sure there are various ANPR cameras around other 'sensitive'
locations such as Whitehall/Westminster - but I don't think any of these
feed into the CC system, and I'm not sure there are any dedicated CC cameras
*within* the zone.

"Richard J." wrote:

Walter Briscoe wrote
on 24 November 2010 07:28:44 ...

This morning's 0655 BBC London news says that BorisBikes will be
available to casual users from the third of December.
I failed to find the relevant press release.

However, I did find:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/congestioncharging/17096.aspx
I expect this to provide a significant improvement.

Currently, if you don't make manual arrangements to pay the CC and incur
a congestion charge, you incur a penalty charge.
I live within the Congestion Charge area and can claim the 90% residents
discount. I pay for a year in advance to avoid that Penalty Charge risk.
This modification to the scheme will mean I won't need to do so.

Note that you are charged £10 annually just to be registered for CC Auto
Pay, which makes it less attractive to people who only incur the
congestion charge a few times every year. (It will take 10 visits for
the £1 discount to pay for the registration fee.)

Indeed - though I suppose it's still cheaper than the £120 (or £60 within 14
days) penalty charge, for those who find themselves capable of unwittingly
driving into the zone. I know some people who'd benefit from this scheme as
they've managed to drive into the zone without realising (daft I know) and
get PCN'ed a few times, thing is I'm pretty sure they won't actually take
advantage of it! For a start they'd need to get round to actually
registering for it, then there's the hassle of yet another online account
and hence password to forget, plus the need to keep the account in order by
ensuring that there's a valid payment card associated with it, and lastly in
at least one case there could be the fear that whoever the account holder is
would end up paying out lots for journeys into the zone that they had
nothing to do with as the car is a kind of shared arrangement. They'll
probably see the light after a further PCN or two!

In message of Wed, 24 Nov 2010
12:04:05 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T writes

"Walter Briscoe" wrote:

This morning's 0655 BBC London news says that BorisBikes will be
available to casual users from the third of December.
I failed to find the relevant press release.
Thanks to David Walters for a reference to
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/17499.aspx


However, I did find:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/congestioncharging/17096.aspx
I expect this to provide a significant improvement.

Currently, if you don't make manual arrangements to pay the CC and incur
a congestion charge, you incur a penalty charge.
I live within the Congestion Charge area and can claim the 90% residents
discount. I pay for a year in advance to avoid that Penalty Charge risk.
This modification to the scheme will mean I won't need to do so.

For me, these are 2 improvements.


Blimey, not sure the number heavy subject line does much for reader-
friendliness (sorry!) - you're not a coder are you perchance?

No perchance about it.


The coming of casual user access for the 'Boris bikes' is welcome -
though I'd imagine that a whole host of new potential issues will now
open up, not least because this change will effectively open up what
has up until now been a relatively closed system.

With regards to CC Auto Pay - this isn't a brand new idea on the scene,
it was certainly around in the summer during the statutory consultation
on changes to the CC (i.e. removal of the Western Extension) and I
think it was first publicly floated by TfL before that.

It is not new; I believe it is new to have a date on it. My opinion is
that the Western Extension was unnecessary and doctrinaire and removing
it, given it is in place, is also unnecessary and doctrinaire. (Scraps
useful hardware.) However, I don't argue with Boris's mandate to do so.


However the £10 annual charge for registering with CC Auto Pay didn't
feature in those earlier mentions of this facility, though TBH it's
quite understandable that there is to be some sort of maintenance
charge for benefitting from it - but compared to my original (and in
retrospect naive) assumption that it'd be free to register for Auto
Pay, the annual charge does change the economics somewhat as to whether
it'd be advantageous for those who rarely drive into the CC zone during
operational hours (still rather cheaper than a single penalty charge
notice of course!).

There is the same fee for Residential discounts. I don't know if I will
have to pay two fees. I don't feel like contacting CCLondon to find out.
My current "subscription" ends in March.


It's also noteworthy that (for non residents) the new standard charge
from 4 Jan 2011 will be £10, whilst those paying by CC Auto Pay will
pay a reduced charge of £9 - I'm not entirely sure of the thinking
behind this, but it's worth noting that vehicles registered with 'Fleet
Auto Pay' (the new name for the fleet scheme for 10+ vehicles - which
is being reduced to 6+ from the new year) currently pay a reduced £7
charge compared the the current standard £8 charge - so perhaps they
want to align the CC Auto Pay charge with that of Fleet Auto Pay, also
I guess the transaction costs with CC Auto Pay might well be lower when
compared to paying the charge each day.

The other thing that interests me about this CC Auto Pay scheme is that
it will throw some light onto how effective the CC zone cameras are at
recording the number plates of all those vehicles which drive in the
(to be shrunken) zone - regular drivers into the zone should get some
idea over time as to whether they ever simply don't get detected and
hence charged for a particular day. I wonder if it might also lead to a
bout of daftness such as drivers trying to sandwich themselves between
large vehicles when passing the cameras on the zone's boundaries in the
hope of blocking their number plates, or obscuring their plates with
muck or some such? My impression is that the cameras, which face both
ways, are pretty hot at catching the plates of all vehicles which pass
by them.

My experience is that 100% of infractions are detected.


What perhaps might be more likely to go undetected is vehicles moving
around solely within the zone, without passing out through the zone's
boundary - e.g. if you (Walter) were to drive your car for a short trip
inside the zone. There are mobile CC camera vans that are out and about
within the zone, but I must admit I'm not sure if there are any fixed
cameras which are hooked up to the CC system - of course there are many
CCTV cameras in central London which have a traffic monitoring role,
and there are the fixed ANPR cameras on the edges of the City of
London's 'ring of steel', and I'm pretty sure there are various ANPR
cameras around other 'sensitive' locations such as
Whitehall/Westminster - but I don't think any of these feed into the CC
system, and I'm not sure there are any dedicated CC cameras *within*
the zone.

I know of the mobile vans within the zone. I believe fixed cameras are
only on the cordon. I suspect parked vehicles will be checked manually.
--
Walter Briscoe

"Walter Briscoe" wrote:

In message of Wed, 24 Nov 2010
12:04:05 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T writes

"Walter Briscoe" wrote:
[snip]
However, I did find:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/congestioncharging/17096.aspx
I expect this to provide a significant improvement.

Currently, if you don't make manual arrangements to pay the CC and incur
a congestion charge, you incur a penalty charge.
I live within the Congestion Charge area and can claim the 90% residents
discount. I pay for a year in advance to avoid that Penalty Charge risk.
This modification to the scheme will mean I won't need to do so.

For me, these are 2 improvements.

Blimey, not sure the number heavy subject line does much for reader-
friendliness (sorry!) - you're not a coder are you perchance?

No perchance about it.

Of course said format (ISO 8601) has rather more widespread usage than just
in coding, courtesy of its unambiguousness. Still, I'm not mad keen on it in
non-technical contexts - ultimately I blame the yanks! (How do you end up
with the month at the start?!)

[snip]
With regards to CC Auto Pay - this isn't a brand new idea on the scene,
it was certainly around in the summer during the statutory consultation
on changes to the CC (i.e. removal of the Western Extension) and I
think it was first publicly floated by TfL before that.

It is not new; I believe it is new to have a date on it. My opinion is
that the Western Extension was unnecessary and doctrinaire and removing
it, given it is in place, is also unnecessary and doctrinaire. (Scraps
useful hardware.) However, I don't argue with Boris's mandate to do so.

The CC consultation in the summer dealt with several proposed changes - the
biggest of course was the removal of the WEZ but it made fairly clear that
the intention was for all the changes to happen at the same time after the
new year (including the introduction of CC Auto Pay).

Re the removal of the WEZ - I think there's a whole other thread in that,
but I recall Tom Barry of 'Boris Watch' suggesting that the initial
non-statutory consultation on the future of the WEZ was a bit dodgy/ rubbish
in its methodology (and it's worth bearing in mind that he didn't actually
have a manifesto commitment to aboloshing it). Ultimately though I wouldn't
argue with his mandate to do so either, even though I disagree with it. Paul
C did make an interesting point recently, that whilst Boris can scrap the
WEZ whilst at the same time trying to extract as much funding out of central
government for London transport improvements, govt. funding for the
Nottingham tram extensions remains conditional on the council imposing work
place parking levies.

I'm not up with what will happen to the existing cameras and kit for the
WEZ, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised if some were retained on some sort
of security rationale (i.e. for police ANPR purposes).


However the £10 annual charge for registering with CC Auto Pay didn't
feature in those earlier mentions of this facility, though TBH it's
quite understandable that there is to be some sort of maintenance
charge for benefitting from it - but compared to my original (and in
retrospect naive) assumption that it'd be free to register for Auto
Pay, the annual charge does change the economics somewhat as to whether
it'd be advantageous for those who rarely drive into the CC zone during
operational hours (still rather cheaper than a single penalty charge
notice of course!).

There is the same fee for Residential discounts. I don't know if I will
have to pay two fees. I don't feel like contacting CC London to find out.
My current "subscription" ends in March.

Aha, yes I see - will the annual Auto Pay fee be on top of the pre-existing
annual fee for the residents discount. My solution to that question would be
to sit tight and all will become clear - though quickly scanning the
available blurb about Auto Pay there's no mention of one fee cancelling out
the other, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if you will have to pay the two
fees.

Just being nosey - does your prepaid year's worth of discounted CC run up
until March too (i.e. is it concurrent with your annual residents discount
'subscription')?

[snip]
The other thing that interests me about this CC Auto Pay scheme is that
it will throw some light onto how effective the CC zone cameras are at
recording the number plates of all those vehicles which drive in the
(to be shrunken) zone - regular drivers into the zone should get some
idea over time as to whether they ever simply don't get detected and
hence charged for a particular day. I wonder if it might also lead to a
bout of daftness such as drivers trying to sandwich themselves between
large vehicles when passing the cameras on the zone's boundaries in the
hope of blocking their number plates, or obscuring their plates with
muck or some such? My impression is that the cameras, which face both
ways, are pretty hot at catching the plates of all vehicles which pass
by them.

My experience is that 100% of infractions are detected.

IIRC there were various murmurings about dirty number plates or non-standard
fonts used on number plates, but leaving that aside I haven't come across
anyone who's said that 'they got away with it' - failed to pay without
getting a PCN. Well, for UK registered cars at least - foreign registered
cars are a different ball game - and that's without mentioning the
diplomats!



What perhaps might be more likely to go undetected is vehicles moving
around solely within the zone, without passing out through the zone's
boundary - e.g. if you (Walter) were to drive your car for a short trip
inside the zone. There are mobile CC camera vans that are out and about
within the zone, but I must admit I'm not sure if there are any fixed
cameras which are hooked up to the CC system - of course there are many
CCTV cameras in central London which have a traffic monitoring role,
and there are the fixed ANPR cameras on the edges of the City of
London's 'ring of steel', and I'm pretty sure there are various ANPR
cameras around other 'sensitive' locations such as
Whitehall/Westminster - but I don't think any of these feed into the CC
system, and I'm not sure there are any dedicated CC cameras *within*
the zone.

I know of the mobile vans within the zone. I believe fixed cameras are
only on the cordon. I suspect parked vehicles will be checked manually.

Though of course for cars that are parked in an on-street resident's bay
which are registered for a CC residents discount there's no need to pay the
discounted CC so long as they aren't driven at all during charging hours (of
course they'll also need a valid residents parking permit, but that's the
local council's department not TfL's). I wonder if the CC enforcement bods
do bother checking parked vehicles at all?

Mizter T wrote on 24 November 2010 15:43:55 ...

"Walter wrote:


I know of the mobile vans within the zone. I believe fixed cameras are
only on the cordon. I suspect parked vehicles will be checked manually.

Though of course for cars that are parked in an on-street resident's bay
which are registered for a CC residents discount there's no need to pay the
discounted CC so long as they aren't driven at all during charging hours (of
course they'll also need a valid residents parking permit, but that's the
local council's department not TfL's). I wonder if the CC enforcement bods
do bother checking parked vehicles at all?

I don't see any point in checking parked vehicles inside the zone. If
they're parked, they are not incurring the charge, and the fact that
they are parked doesn't tell you anything about their movements into and
out of the parking place, which may or may not incur the charge.
--
Richard J.

"Richard J." wrote:

Mizter T wrote on 24 November 2010 15:43:55 ...

"Walter wrote:

I know of the mobile vans within the zone. I believe fixed cameras are
only on the cordon. I suspect parked vehicles will be checked manually.

Though of course for cars that are parked in an on-street resident's bay
which are registered for a CC residents discount there's no need to pay
the
discounted CC so long as they aren't driven at all during charging hours
(of
course they'll also need a valid residents parking permit, but that's the
local council's department not TfL's). I wonder if the CC enforcement
bods
do bother checking parked vehicles at all?

I don't see any point in checking parked vehicles inside the zone. If
they're parked, they are not incurring the charge, and the fact that they
are parked doesn't tell you anything about their movements into and out of
the parking place, which may or may not incur the charge.


You said - "If they're parked, they are not incurring the charge[...]"

I must admit I had to double-check on this when I posted earlier, because
what you've said above is kinda what I thought was the situation was -
however see the below from page 4 of this leaflet (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/CC-Cameras.pdf

---quote---
You will incur a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) if you drive or park on public
roads in the Congestion Charging zone during operating hours, aren't
eligible for an exemption or registered for a discount, and don't pay the £8
charge by midnight on the day of travel or the £10 charge by midnight of the
next charging day.
---/quote---


So the CC is actually payable if you "drive *or* park on public roads"
during operating hours, unless you're vehicle is registered for a discount.
(The bit I said about the vehicle having to be parked in an on-street
resident's bay is from memory, as I couldn't quickly find reference to that
just now, but that's also what friends who live in the zone regard as being
the rules.)

Arguably, even if a car is parked in the zone and doesn't move at all during
the charging hours it could still be said to be contributing towards
congestion I suppose. I also wonder if part of the logic is that the mobile
CC camera vans can't definitively detect the difference between a parked
vehicle and one moving very slowly, or indeed one that's stopped in traffic?

Though from elsewhere in the aforementioned leaflet - specifically page 1 -
it does say this:

---quote---
The cameras read your number plate as you enter, leave, or drive within the
charging zone, and check it against the database [...]
---/quote---


No specific mention of the cameras checking parked cars - though, given the
leaflet's focus is the cameras, there's nothing in that text that'd actually
rule out manual checks on parked cars being done by staff on the ground.
However I'd wager that they don't do any such checks, but might nonetheless
'reserve the right' to do them if they were to deem it necessary for
whatever reason.

"Mizter T" wrote in
:

With regards to CC Auto Pay - this isn't a brand new idea on the
scene, it was certainly around in the summer during the statutory
consultation on changes to the CC (i.e. removal of the Western
Extension) and I think it was first publicly floated by TfL before
that.

It was considered when the scheme was first launched, but vetoed then on
the grounds that it would reduce the deterrent effect of the charge. It
was only allowed for fleets after some intense lobbying.

It's also noteworthy that (for non residents) the new standard charge
from 4 Jan 2011 will be £10, whilst those paying by CC Auto Pay will
pay a reduced charge of £9 - I'm not entirely sure of the thinking
behind this,

Nor am I, but auto-pay schemes substantially reduce the number on non-
payers, who have to be pursued through the courts etc, the
(considerable) cost of which is borne by those that do pay. So there
are some real savings and maybe that's the thinking.

What perhaps might be more likely to go undetected is vehicles moving
around solely within the zone, without passing out through the zone's
boundary - e.g. if you (Walter) were to drive your car for a short
trip inside the zone. There are mobile CC camera vans that are out and
about within the zone, but I must admit I'm not sure if there are any
fixed cameras which are hooked up to the CC system -

At least when the scheme started there was a 'hot cross bun' pattern, ie
cameras around the periphery and some along each of a N-S axis (aligned
on Kingsway I think) and an E-W one (aligned on the northern Embankment)
for that very purpose. Only CC-specific cameras were used, and I think
it unlikely that that has changed, though I could be wrong, because of
the need for high resolution and evidential quality images.

The system was specified such that number plates would be captured three
times on average per visit, but I don't know whether that is achieved.

To avoid being spotted, enter or leave when it's snowing heavily, or
failing that, orient yourself between the camera and the low sun. Those
are the conditions where ANPR works least well. :-)

Peter

--
| Peter Campbell Smith | Epsom | UK |